Pickups for my Gibson Chambered R8 Les Paul?

[Ray K.]

I'm thinking about replacing at least the bridge Burstbucker pickup in my '58 Reissue Chambered Les Paul. It doesn't sound bad with the exception of the high E and B strings. They're a bit too treble-y or biting.

I've lowered the adjustable pole piece and the treble side of the pickup, quite a bit IMO - about 5/32"! Actually the B string is better now at this height. But the E is still too bright for my taste.

So, I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions. I've been researching and there are what seems to be a "brazillion" to choose from these days. :D From the well known mass producers to the many small boutique winders.

I might be fine with a set of Seymour Duncans - Antiquities, Pearly Gates, etc.

But, I also have a lead on a single Peter Florance Voodoo '59 w/ Alnico 5 magnet. Just the bridge pickup only. I guess if it worked out, I could order the matching neck pickup from him if needed.

Btw, my guitar isn't relic'ed, but it does have the VOS treatment. So, I'd like to find some with lightly aged nickel covers. Nothing drastic. But, I think shiny new ones might stick out like a sore thumb.

I've also been looking at Lollar Imperials, Sheptones, Tom Holmes, WCR, etc.

I'm trying to walk the fine line of getting a set of great sounding pickups that will compliment this guitar, but not spend crazy money for them either.

So, I thought I would post here and see if anyone has some suggestions or maybe even some leads. I've had experience with Duncan pickups, but none of the others. And, of course, pickups can sound different in different guitars.

Thanks,
Ray K.

[bruce]

The first thing that I would ask is what is in there now... then go from there based on that. You may have the Burstbucker #1 and #2 in there.

The Lollars are beautifully smooth as with the Duncan Antiquities.. more so than the Burst buckers 1 and 2. I don't have experience with the the others you listed.

[Ray K.]

Hey Bruce,

Sorry I left that critical information out. Yes, there is a BurstBucker #1 & #2 in it now.

Also, I'm wanting the overly used descriptors, "honk" and "woody" tones, from my Les Paul. I want PAF cleans with the volumes rolled back, but also want to have on tap plenty of punch when going to "eleven." The tone/volume controls work very well and I want to make use of them.

I run my amp cleanish, just at breakup and achieve various levels of overdrive/distortion with pedals. I don't play metal stuff, so I'm not looking for mosquito buzz tones either.

Hope that helps. If not, I'll be glad to answer any other questions.

Thanks,
Ray K.

[bruce]

In order to get the PAF cleans with the volumes rolled back, it NEEDS to be rewired to 50's style. You will get more woody tones with replacing those Burstbuckers too. I would definitely recommend the Lollars or the Antiquities.. only because I have experience with them and not the others you mentioned.

[dannopelli]

Ray,

FWIW I have played a few LP's with DiMarzio PAF, Fralin PAF, and Duncan Seth Lover PUPS. They were all really nice.

But the one the sounds to me most like a LP is just some good old Gibson 57 Classics.

I just found the 57's to be more authentic sounding.

[Ray K.]

Bruce, yeah this a Historic from their Custom Shop, so it has the 50's wiring (love it!).

I went for the Antiquity's, ordered them today. Thanks for your help!

Dan, yeah, I didn't list them. But the '57 Classics were on the list also. Thanks!

I'll report back, hopefully next week sometime, when I get them installed and have some play time on them.

Ray K.

[Pietro]

I had a LP Standard in the late 80s that had the 490/500 or some such (similar to what is in Les Paul Studios now). I LOVED them.

I've also played stuff with 57 classics and loved them, too.

[bruce]

Bruce, yeah this a Historic from their Custom Shop, so it has the 50's wiring (love it!).

I went for the Antiquity's, ordered them today. Thanks for your help!

Dan, yeah, I didn't list them. But the '57 Classics were on the list also. Thanks!

I'll report back, hopefully next week sometime, when I get them installed and have some play time on them.

Ray K.


Ray,

You should verify that your guitar actually has correct 50's wiring.. Unless this is something Gibson CS started doing very recently...I've not seen one in true 50's form yet. The signal path is very important.

Is this a new guitar?

[Ray K.]

Bruce, it is a 2008. I just checked, and wow..."modern" wiring!

Thing is, it sounds like 50's wiring! I can roll the volumes down to 1.5 - 2 and it retains the same tones. Plenty of treble, and in my case a little too much on the high E/B of the bridge pickup, as I already mentioned.

I know the 50's wiring is simple to accomplish, just connect the caps to different lugs on the pots. But, I'm thinking I may leave it as is for now until I get the new pickups installed and see how things sound. If things need to be changed, I would have no problem with doing so.

I read somewhere on the Net that the Custom Shop had spent big time money to have the CTS pots built for them to early specs. I don't know if that is fact or fiction. I also don't know about the caps, but they are BumbleBee, or at least look a likes. I'm sure this must have something to do with what I'm hearing, because I've never owned or played a Les Paul that was so responsive at the controls. I always added "treble bleed" kits to mine to retain the highs as the volume was rolled down.

Thanks again for asking the right questions! It got me thinking, and I couldn't wait to get back in town to check the wiring schema.

Ray K.

[bruce]

Bruce, it is a 2008. I just checked, and wow..."modern" wiring!

Thing is, it sounds like 50's wiring! I can roll the volumes down to 1.5 - 2 and it retains the same tones. Plenty of treble, and in my case a little too much on the high E/B of the bridge pickup, as I already mentioned.

I know the 50's wiring is simple to accomplish, just connect the caps to different lugs on the pots. But, I'm thinking I may leave it as is for now until I get the new pickups installed and see how things sound. If things need to be changed, I would have no problem with doing so.

I read somewhere on the Net that the Custom Shop had spent big time money to have the CTS pots built for them to early specs. I don't know if that is fact or fiction. I also don't know about the caps, but they are BumbleBee, or at least look a likes. I'm sure this must have something to do with what I'm hearing, because I've never owned or played a Les Paul that was so responsive at the controls. I always added "treble bleed" kits to mine to retain the highs as the volume was rolled down.

Thanks again for asking the right questions! It got me thinking, and I couldn't wait to get back in town to check the wiring schema.

Ray K.

Well, 50's wiring is simple, but it's slightly more than just the cap connection.
The tone pot's ground is different too. The use of 500k audio taper pots all around is crucial as well. I meter and match them when I do this job. The caps used will be subjective to one's ear and not as crucial (noticeable) as the above mentioned.

The high end you are not liking is from the gibson pick ups... not the wiring. The Antiquities will have a much woodier quality with a warmer attack. No more unwanted shzinginess.

[Ray K.]

Yeah, I know it's the pickups causing the issue, so I'm looking forward to getting the Antiquity's installed. The should arrive today or tomorrow.

I had a set of BurstBuckers in a Gibson Gary Moore LP, which is the first guitar they put them in. I changed those out also for a Duncan '59 neck and JB bridge. Much better! That was awhile ago though and I can't recall what the issues were with that set of BB's (#1 & #2). I just remember I didn't quite care for them.

Yes, I realize the ground lug on the tone pots needs to be changed, thanks. I didn't spell it out in detail, but I was thinking of just using the existing ones. That would mean I would have to unsolder the grounded lugs, carefully as not to overheat.

Like you, I always meter and match pots before install. I also personally wouldn't bother with buying Bumble Bee caps, if they weren't already installed. I haven't found a significant difference in the brand of caps, but more so with the values.

Yeah, I'm ready to de-shzing this thing... ;)

Thanks,
Ray K.

[Ray K.]

The Antiquity pickups arrived yesterday. After a late rehearsal last night I did the pickup swaps. The Antiquitys do sound nice, but the bridge pickup is still a bit too bright on the treble side. I have it lowered quite a bit along withe pole pieces screwed in a few turns. The neck pickup sounds fine!

Either set of pickups cleans up very nicely with the volumes rolled back and without treble loss. So, I'm still planing to leave it with the "modern" wiring for now.

My first suspect is the tone cap on the bridge pickup. I plan to desolder/remove it and replace it with alligater clip leads. I'll then start going through various caps that I have. Different values and types. I'm thinking I'll start around .033mf and go up from there if needed. Nice thing about a Les Paul, this is easy to do!

My guitar is chambered and is very "acoustic" or lively sounding to begin with. So, it might have to do with the tone woods or characteristics of this particular guitar.

The only other thing that I'm scratching my head about is maybe trying different strings. Maybe just on the higher three (E B G) even. I've been using Elixir Nanowebs .009 sets on all of my guitars and love them! So, I'm not totally convinced yet that this is the problem, but I think it's a remote possibility.

Still on the perfect tone hunt... :cool:

Thanks,
Ray K.

[bruce]

The Antiquity pickups arrived yesterday. After a late rehearsal last night I did the pickup swaps. The Antiquitys do sound nice, but the bridge pickup is still a bit too bright on the treble side. I have it lowered quite a bit along withe pole pieces screwed in a few turns. The neck pickup sounds fine!

Either set of pickups cleans up very nicely with the volumes rolled back and without treble loss. So, I'm still planing to leave it with the "modern" wiring for now.

My first suspect is the tone cap on the bridge pickup. I plan to desolder/remove it and replace it with alligater clip leads. I'll then start going through various caps that I have. Different values and types. I'm thinking I'll start around .033mf and go up from there if needed. Nice thing about a Les Paul, this is easy to do!

My guitar is chambered and is very "acoustic" or lively sounding to begin with. So, it might have to do with the tone woods or characteristics of this particular guitar.

The only other thing that I'm scratching my head about is maybe trying different strings. Maybe just on the higher three (E B G) even. I've been using Elixir Nanowebs .009 sets on all of my guitars and love them! So, I'm not totally convinced yet that this is the problem, but I think it's a remote possibility.

Still on the perfect tone hunt... :cool:

Thanks,
Ray K.

The alligator clip thing is a great thing to do if you have the means and extra time. I personally would still wire it to 50's style. Here's a great way for you to experience 50's vs. modern.

The other part of this is the fact that it's chambered. Typically, a chambered out body will have less in the midrange body and a slower and softer pick attack.. which means you can be left with bottom and top end.

Please post your findings.

[Ray K.]

The alligator clip thing is a great thing to do if you have the means and extra time. I personally would still wire it to 50's style. Here's a great way for you to experience 50's vs. modern.

The other part of this is the fact that it's chambered. Typically, a chambered out body will have less in the midrange body and a slower and softer pick attack.. which means you can be left with bottom and top end.

Please post your findings.Hey Bruce,

Well, for the time being anyway, I've settled on a .047mf cap (Orange Drop). I soldered it in place last night after going through several values and types of caps. I also lowered the treble side of the pickup just a bit more and lowered some of the pole pieces.

If it's not there, it's mighty close. I say that only because I haven't had a whole lot of play time. I hope to remedy that this weekend. But what I've heard so far sounds really good! I've been playing it straight into my Marshall Haze, which has a good clean and overdrive channel. So, I can compare and tweak accordingly.

Okay, I'd like to pick your mind on the '50s wiring. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but primarily it retains the high end (treble) as the volume knobs are turned down. There is some difference also with the tone pots. My understanding is there is a slight volume drop when rolling off of these.

Modern versus 50's wiring seems to be the hottest topic of debate, especially regarding Les Pauls. Since it seems that my guitar is more on the bright side tonewise, I'm not totally sold on the idea yet. But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestion. Please enlighten me, I may be totally overlooking something here.

Thanks for your help!
Ray K.

[bruce]

You are correct.. it does retain the highs a bit when rolling down the volume knob, and the tone pot seems to work better for me too. Most guitars I do this mod for have the 300k linear pots so going to 50's style AND 500k audio taper so the results are huge... not quite as huge inn your case since you most likely have 500k audio pots in there... wouldn't hurt to measure them though.. (you would have to remove the pickup leads and the caps etc. though).

I think this is a great time for you to experiment with what you have now and then switch to 50's style.. maybe wait a bit to become more familiar with your new pickups first before the switch though.

I remember know that the chambered LP's I've come in contact with all had a smaller bodied 'hit' with single notes. I wonder if this something to the dilemma. Can it possibly be something else? Is the amp new to you? Have you had other guitars into it with the same results?

[sylvanshine]

Little late to the party, but my main is a CR0. I've had Voodoo 59s in there since day 1- 8.2 in bridge and 7.9 in neck. Recently took a friends reco and put Dimarzio PAFs in there. HUGE improvement. And I thought I was happy. I get that open airy articulation with note bloom that I've been trying to capture since I heard Gibbons tone on the opening 2 tracks of Fandango.

I also top wrap and installed longer screws into the body for the bridge. RS pots and caps.

My .02, YMMV.

[Ray K.]

You are correct.. it does retain the highs a bit when rolling down the volume knob, and the tone pot seems to work better for me too. Most guitars I do this mod for have the 300k linear pots so going to 50's style AND 500k audio taper so the results are huge... not quite as huge inn your case since you most likely have 500k audio pots in there... wouldn't hurt to measure them though.. (you would have to remove the pickup leads and the caps etc. though).I measured the tone pots at 460k each. Didn't have time to desolder the volume pots to measure them. But, I'll say again, I really like they way they react - very usable through the full range.



I think this is a great time for you to experiment with what you have now and then switch to 50's style.. maybe wait a bit to become more familiar with your new pickups first before the switch though.I would agree. Also since I have the new value cap on the bridge, I'll play it for awhile and see how I like it. I'll probably take it to a rehearsal so I can hear it through FOH, which will tell me even more. It might not sound as bright there, and might even cut through the mix better. We'll see...



I remember know that the chambered LP's I've come in contact with all had a smaller bodied 'hit' with single notes. I wonder if this something to the dilemma. Can it possibly be something else? Is the amp new to you? Have you had other guitars into it with the same results?I'm not sure about the "hit" factor, but I was wondering about strings (?). The Marshall is new. I posted about it here, if you care to read: http://andersonforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=7988

But, the bridge pickup was an issue through my live rig, which I've had a long time and am very familiar with. So, I think the amp can be eliminated from the equation.

Thanks again for your help. I do appreciate it!

Ray K.

[Ray K.]

Hey Jay,

Welcome to the party! I believe the Duncan Aniquitys are going to do it for me. But I'm really glad you found "your" set of pickups. I hadn't touched DiMarzio pickups in years until I put a set of Areas in my '56 CS Strat. Love 'em!

Tell me about the RS pots and caps you went with. Prewired kit or separate components? What caps - brand and value? Did you go with their "Super" volume pots, or whatever they're called?

Thanks,
Ray K.

[sylvanshine]

Ray, I did get the pre-wired set of super pots.

[Ray K.]

Thanks, Jay. I'm leaning toward getting some of their super volume pots, standard tone pots and caps and seeing if that will help with smoothing out the high end of my CR8.

I'll most likely wire it 50's style to see what else I can get out of it, at Bruce's suggestion.

Thanks,
Ray K.

[sylvanshine]

Thanks, Jay. I'm leaning toward getting some of their super volume pots, standard tone pots and caps and seeing if that will help with smoothing out the high end of my CR8.

I'll most likely wire it 50's style to see what else I can get out of it, at Bruce's suggestion.

Thanks,
Ray K.

Based on what you've said, this sounds like the perfect set to me...
http://store.rsguitarworks.net/PREVINMODSHO.html

[Ray K.]

Thanks, Jay, but I ordered their "Treble Tamer" kit just last night: http://store.rsguitarworks.net/TTVINTKITSH.html

I based my decision on this "This kit is for anyone who has a bright/harsh guitar tone."

I also looked at the kit you recommend, but it has "Happy with your Bridge pickup's tone" in the description. The bridge pickup is the one giving me the trouble - only on the high E & B strings.

Last night I lowered the pole pieces even more and put a set of D'Addario EXP on. I now have to roll the tone to about 2, but that gets me very close to where I want it. So, I was relieved to hear some improvement!

I'll post the results when I get the kit installed.

Thanks for your help,
Ray K.

[sylvanshine]

The bridge pickup is the one giving me the trouble - only on the high E & B strings.Ray K.

Hmmm, switch to nylon saddles maybe?

[Ray K.]

Good call, Jay.

The saddles and even the bridge itself have already crossed my mind. I'll see what results I get from the new electronics first.

Thanks,
Ray K.

[Ray K.]

The new electronics arrived yesterday and I installed them late last night. This was not a pre-wired harness. It's the RS Guitarworks "Vintage Treble Tamer Kit": http://store.rsguitarworks.net/TTVINTKITSH.html

The first thing I did was to measure the pots - NV 545k, NT 553k, BV 326k, BT 291k. It came with RS branded Jensen caps, .015mfd for Neck and .022mfd for the bridge.

I wired it 50's style.

I only had a brief time to play, but here are some things I noticed right away.

The volume rolls off way too fast for my taste! Oh, it cleans up very nicely, but the lack of volume isn't acceptable. I mean from 7 to 10 is usable, but below that the volume is reduced too much and it seems to suddenly drop off.

As I've mentioned, I was quite pleased with the stock volume controls wired modern. They were usable throughout their entire range and were more predictable.

I'm not certain if this is due to the taper of the pots or the 50's wiring? I suspect it is the 50's wiring, so I will switch one of the caps and see if that proves it. If not, I'll put the original volume pots back in for the time being until I get a 300k pot for the bridge. If needed.

Otherwise I like the interaction of the controls with the 50's wiring.

These components did help with taming the treble of the bridge pickup, but it's still not quite perfect. I can roll the bridge tone control to 5 and it sounds quite good, whereas I was having to roll it down to 2-3 with the stock pots and .047mfd Orange Drop cap I installed. So, it seems I'm headed in the right direction.

But turning it up much past that and I'm back to too much treble for my taste. I'm wondering if going to a .033mfd or even a .047mfd cap will help? I'm just wanting to even out the tone control so that it is more usable throughout it's range.

More thoughts later when I have more time playing it. But, any suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Ray K.

[Ray K.]

Had more fun at my bench with this guitar this morning...

I couldn't acquire a taste for the taper of the volume pots, so I put the original pots back in. They measure out at 450k and 520k. I installed the greater value pot for the neck and the other for the bridge.

They work very well and are smooth and usable from 0-10 with no sudden jumps in volume.

I left the caps and tone pots in place, but changed back to "modern" wiring.

Now, I'm happy! Or, maybe I should say...I'm happy for now, since we tonefreaks are forever chasing tone. :rolleyes:

Though, I may try some GraphTech String Saver saddles. I've used them on other Les Pauls and they seem to smooth out the overall sound. I can always return them if they don't show any improvement (45 days).

I hope this information is helpful to someone else.

Thanks,
Ray K.

[Ray K.]

...my main is a CR0. I've had Voodoo 59s in there since day 1- 8.2 in bridge and 7.9 in neck. Recently took a friends reco and put Dimarzio PAFs in there. HUGE improvement. And I thought I was happy. I get that open airy articulation with note bloom that I've been trying to capture since I heard Gibbons tone on the opening 2 tracks of Fandango.
Jay, I finally decided to try a Dimarzio PAF 36th Anniversary in the bridge position. I only installed it last night and had just a few hours of play time at home, but my sentiments are very similar to yours. I'm quite impressed and glad this one works much better with my "brighter" sounding guitar.

The Antiquitys were working quite well, but I wanted to see if the Dimarzio would be an improvement, and it is, in my case. I would still recommend the Duncans to someone with a guitar that isn't as bright.

I like this quote from Dimarzio's site "perfect balance between warmth and clarity, the ability to go from clean to distorted by pick attack alone." This seems to sum it up nicely.

Oh, and I much prefer the looks of the vintage worn nickel cover on the Dimarzio versus the Duncans.

I'm quite tempted to get the neck PAF now, though the Antiquity doesn't sound bad at all. Hehe...you know I won't be able to resist! :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation and help!

Ray K.