tom how did you get started?

[dpeterson]

Tom,

I'm trying to re-think what i want to do when i grow up... currently i'm a web developer, and i'm about sick of sitting behind a computer, and want to try to get into something i like/love. not that i'm going to quit cold turkey or anything either..

I've always fiddled around with guitars, doing mods for friends and myself, routing, soldering, building from parts etc. I'm real good at setting them up, have friends all the time bring me stuff to get it to play better.

I bought a junker neck off ebay, and refretted it. It came out ok, but not as uniform, i'm sure that will happen with time, and you learn tricks etc.

I need to start investing in some good power tools, i have a good drill press, decent table saw, need a band saw and some other stuff.

Is there any route that you would suggest going from your experience or any advice to get started? Remember i live in Ohio, and have a family, so packing up and getting a job at a big guitar company is out of the question.

thanks,
Dave

[tom]

that's a tough question. sounds like you are already doing the things i was doing in the early days. i mad the jump from hobby/ fun stuff to income/job when i went to work with dave schecter back in 77. it was a nice invironment to learn in, neither of us had any formal training, so we didn't know how you were supposed to do things. it led to some unusual methods and definitely unusual machines. all have worked to my benefit now. if i were to start again knowing what i know now, i think my first empoyee wound be my cnc machine. since you already probably have more computer geek skills than i do, it would be a faster learning curve. cnc machines can only do what they are told to do, so they don't build guitars all by them self, but they allow you to try things without spending countless hours on hard tooling. they give you the freedom to abandon things that are not quite right because you don't have a huge time investment in them. as far as tools, i don't own a table saw, and think you can get along quite nicely without one. you will need a decent jointer, and nice but not giant band saw, and some sanding machines. we made a good portion of our sanders, as there weren't any ones out there that did what we needed.

[tom]

sorry, i ran out of room. one of the tough things when you are starting is having enough space and money to get equipment big enough to do the planing and sanding of your blanks. in the early days, i took a night class at the local high school wood shop. all the other old guys who were there working on their book shelves hated me when i showed up cause i would bring in a load of neck and body blanks and make a horrible noise planing them down. i know i haven't really answered your question, crossing the line from hobby to income is a tough one, and these days it may be tougher than it was when i started. the import stuff is better than ever, and there are so many new guys that it must be hard to get recognized. i'll ask jack if there is a way for me to post some shop photo's on the site. they won't be retouched like the great stuff roy does, but they shoud give you a feel what we we use to do what we do. i'm out of room again.

[sonicparke]

Dave,

I'm in the same boat you are. Tired of sitting behind a computer all day. I happen to have a luthier friend about 2 hours from me so I was able to take a few Saturdays and use his shop and head to get started on a guitar myself. Still got a bit to go but everything else can be done in my garage. It's been a lot of fun and I'd love to do more but the biggest thing holding me back is the money for the tools. Now that I've built using all the tools I need it's hard to "make it work" with other stuff.

Anyway, I've found a lot of good info at www.mimf.com. Start looking through that site if you haven't already. You may not find an answer to everything but it's a good place to get some ideas. They have a library of sorts if you register.

Oh and where in Ohio are you? I have in-laws in Wilmington (near Dayton, Cincy) there and have thrown around the idea of moving there. So if you wanna get a CNC machine that might help my decision! :-)

Well I'm not Tom and I'd love to suck all the knowledge I can outta him but that's my limited 2 cents.

[dpeterson]

Sonic Park,

I'm in miamisburg.. between dayton and cincy too, little north of wilmington, i work at LexisNexis (legal document searching repository), nice place to live (cheap), wonder whats halfsies on a cnc machine? ;) thanks for the link.

Tom,

I figured you would say cnc, and being a geek that was the first thing i was looking at to be honest, then i saw the prices... WOW talk about sticker shock. are there any that arent as big as a house and cost as much?

I was also reading up on the UV curing, trying to find more info on that (tough going), as I figure if i could cure the paint faster, i could learn about it faster as well ;) I have done some finishing, and wetsanding, and rubbing out (will need a buffing wheel though), by hand sucks.

I have a decent sized basement, about 1100 sq ft, of which i could use about 500-600. After more thinking, i think i'm going to make this a priority, and start funneling spare cash towards building a shop. I've convinced myself I can do it, if i can just put it all together....

thanks for the info, and pics would be great...

thanks,
Dave

[sonicparke]

OK...I looked up where Miamisburg is. I should've done that first. My Father-in-law was driving to Wright-Pat everyday but is retiring at the end of the month. Long commute.

Tulsa's pretty cheap too but you mentioned one of my biggest complaints about living here...NO BASEMENTS!!!!!!!! I could have twice the house if I lived up north but only a handful of old houses have basements down here. So I'm always complaining when I visit them and their 1400 sqft basement.

I am curious of the cost of a CNC machine. I looked around a while back and the cheapest thing I found was $30,000. I was only half kidding about moving up there. But I'm a network admin working on my MCSE so if you can get me a good job at Lexis Nexis then I might listen. :D

Tom,

While a CNC machine is cool and fast and perfect don't you lose some of the "fun" by not doing the body "by hand"?

Although since building necks scares me (I'm using a warmoth first time around) a CNC would be really really great for that. Dave, if you do get a CNC I might buy some necks form you in the future :D.

[tom]

while it takes time to figure out how to do necks consistantly, bodies take more sanding time. i don't know too many people that like to sand wood. sanding finish is kind of a zen thing for me, but sanding bodies is not really fun. the body spends about half an hour on the cnc, then 2.5 hours being sanded ready for finish. necks spend about the same amount of time on the cnc, but way less sanding time. pre cnc necks had more sanding time, and were way less consistant feeling. with the cnc, you can be more creative and accomplish more in less time in the design stage, then reproduce that creation more accurately.
i haven't priced cnc's lately, because i've had mine since '88, and it's still going strong. 30k is probably about as little as you an get away with. you can get routers, and you'll spend lots of time trying to make "prefect templates"

[tom]

the template are seldom as perfect as you would like them to be, but with all the time you've invested in them, you use them and have to spend more time on each part you make to make the parts be "perfect". not to quench your desire or passion for building, but you need to think about what you want to do and how you will get there financially before you get too far along. lots of people have a passion but no business sense, and end up failing.
grizzly has a cool paint buffer for a good price. lots of their stuff is better than most at a reasonable price.

[sonicparke]

good point, tom. Sanding is probably my least favorite part. I guess I could always outsource the cnc of the bodies and necks and do everything else myself. As far as a buisiness decision goes that might work. But I can't help but think that you're just assembling at that point rather than building. All I really want out of it is to build 10 or 12 a year at somepoint as sort of a side thing. Not really aspiring to compete with you because I can't :D . I just enjoy building guitars. Of course if I'm building them how can I justify playing an anderson one day instead of my own guitars? Doesn't seem like it would be good for business.

[tom]

yeah you may have to rethink what you play. jobing out bodies and necks doesn't really feel like building to me, but lots of people do it. you're leaving a lot of critical stuff up to someone else.

[sonicparke]

well I suppose if that critical stuff was left up to YOU then it wouldn't be so bad for ME would it? Hint...hint... :D

Just kidding... I've only built one and I'm not quite finished with it yet so I'm jumping way ahead of myself. But I have enjoy much of the process and know that I'd like to do more. So maybe I can find a used cnc machine on ebay someday soon...who knows. I guess if you've had yours since 1988 then they must last a long time and be a good investment.

[tom]

fadal sells refurbished ones for about 30-40k which is not bad for an 85k machine.

[cygnux]

I totally agree with tom's opinion about CNC working on routing body and neck as a CNC programmer in guitar company. I couldn't see any differences between CNC making body and router making by hand. In a view of precise manufacuring, CNC can make body with 0.05mm tolerance limits, but routing body by hand can not exceed that limits. Both of router bits are almost the
same and directions of cut are very similar.... Think of carved top body which is real time consuming and require of back breaking hard labour, CNC also can accomplish that job with 3D modeling .... very precise and produtive.. that are my conclusions.

With a small shop operation, I would like to recomend Machining
Center which is cheaper than CNC. If you'd like to use just one axis, M/C will be best fit for you. Because it doesn't required too
much room and easy to maintain with ATC(Automatic Tool Changer)

[dpeterson]

can you expand on the "machining center" ?

I'm going to get a bandsaw, vacuum press, and some spray equipment.

now i just have to figure out how he does the drop top :) i'm assuming you are kerfing the top wood so it doesnt crack?

cnc might be a ways off for me, but i have seen some hobyist cnc's for a couple grand, and might be a good place to learn.

Dave

[tom]

not sure what he means by machining center, some call vertical mills, like the fadal, a maching center. you have to be careful about low cost cnc's. they can have weird coded controls that will not convert to a full machine. many also use proprietary software that is not exportable. they also have notoriously under powered spindles. if you have questions about a paticular machine i'll try to help.
yes the yops are kerfed for easier bendability. it's really not that hard to do the laminating. you just have to be sure to get a good tangent radius on the back you are laminating to.

[dpeterson]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=57122&item=3822003114

check that out... they have full machines with motors from 2250. just put a router on it. i have stacks fo pcs' laying around i could use. this one looks like it's made well and big enough.

Dave

[tom]

usually if you see "engraver", aluminium, or dremel attached to a machine, you can figure "super light duty". this one fits that description too well. weird software is also recomended. 17x17 would be pretty tough to make a body with, and no necks. next.

[tom]

i had a friend build me a cnc coil winder with a pc control. not to disimilar from what you are looking for. $4000 and two years later it still hasn't wound a pickup.

[dpeterson]

you can attach any router you want to the thing, and since it was all aluminum i thought it might hold up. granted i'll be learning, and not chucking out 800 guitars a year ;)

looks like it'll be a router and some templates for me then until i can pony up 30k. uggh.

so now i have that solved, as far as painting goes, i hope i can get by a little cheaper than 30k ;) is the whole uv thing hard to set up? i'm assuming you mix something into the clear or paint, and then blast it with uv lamps in a room that you are not in :)

Dave

[dpeterson]

Originally posted by tom
usually if you see "engraver", aluminium, or dremel attached to a machine, you can figure "super light duty". this one fits that description too well. weird software is also recomended. 17x17 would be pretty tough to make a body with, and no necks. next.


also while i'm looking, how big is big enough for the cutting surface, one piece at a time is fine for me.

dave

[dpeterson]

hmm just thought of another option, what about a duplicarver?

http://www.terrco.com/sign.html

not automated, but it's cheaper than an overarm pin router.. and it has a huge cutting surface.

Dave

[cygnux]

All I know about CNC machinery, are the real professional one..
not a hobystic things..
The CNC you found on e-bay web, looks a little bit crude for making guitars... sorry..

*** Super heavy duty CNC for guitar body***
http://www.seyoon.co.kr/html/p-8cncrouter.html
Those CNC are for mass production lines.. It needed to make jig
plate before use. Many other guitar companies use this style of
CNC, like fender... This is very strong enough to cut a guitar body amount to 800 per day with narrow(??) tolerances. Very professional...
*** Machining Center for guitar body & Neck***
http://www.seyoon.co.kr/html/p-3_3.html
M/C is a CNC routers that are equipped with ATC & Turning index.. Those M/C linked above just for body & neck shaping. It also need jig plate before use.

Be sure of that when you want something for particular uses, you
are the very person who knows most what you needed.. why don't you looking for machninery distributor around you. There would be a lot of M/C makers who will answer to your inquiry.
Here is very far eastern country, so I not familiar to U.S environments.

Sorry for pretty rambling.

[tom]

cutting surface needs to be as big as your biggest part. guitar necks need about 30", bass bigger. neck throughs way bigger. if you're gonna do tilted headstocks, you'll need more z travel. also if you do fret slotting, you need enough z for a right angle head.
a pin router is a good start, but knowing what i know now, i'd save for the cnc. as long as you're making an income at whatever you're doing now, start saving. you can make great gitars with hand routers too. jim olson had about a billion hand routers before he got his fadal.
the duplicarver can do a reasonable job on carvig, but is no good for normal pocketing and perimeters. we had a heavier duty one at schecter in the old days for carving necks. we still had to do some serious reinforcing to make it work good enough.
you can get into uv for about 10k, ouch. you don't need to start there if you have some space where stinky stuff can sit and some time for it to sit there.

[slowburn]

another thing you need to consider is what will you offer guitarists that isn't already out there? a better "strat/tele"? there's already anderson, grosh, suhr, (even G&L's for that matter) for that. a better les paul? you'll get sued.

so something that's more important than all the tools you will need is for you to sit down and come up with a concept of your ideal guitar, whether that be tinkering with scale lengths' neck profiles, body contours, neck joints, etc... and then coming up with a great sounding/playing guitar that will set you apart from all the other "custom builders", (have you been to harmony central's manufacturer's listing? - there's tons of "custom guitar builders").

I know nothing of the guitar building industry, that's just my initial perspective.

[dpeterson]

yeah i've thought about that... but if it makes me happy, i dont really care if i make a dime, i always have my day job, but if it went somewhere that would rock, or who knows i could end up working for tom someday ;)

I've always been the kind of guy who likes to take stuff apart and see how it works, not knowing how to do something or how it works bugs me.

I'm on the pc all day long, and need something to occupy my spare time and get me off this dang thing. If it goes somewhere, awesome, if not, at least i tried.

Dave

[tom]

very healthy attitude. since i'm not a serious computer guy how the heck do you get rid of pop ups? my daughters computer is unusable because of them. i tried a free blocker and it worked for a while, now there are pop ups for pop up blockers! bruce here is having the same problem at home. sorry to break into this thread, but i suspect you computer guys can help.

[slowburn]

tom,

regarding the popups, I just fixed my father-in-law's computer this past weekend. same problem. what your daughter's computer most likely has is a bunch of spyware and adware problems. check if she has any additional "toolbars" in her internet explorer, like hotbar. if she has the purple gorilla known as bonzai buddy, that's one as well....

you can fix the problem by downloading anti spyware such as spybot and adaware. these are programs designed to sniff out spyware and adware and remove them from your PC. regular virus scans won't do the trick because they are not viruses per say, but just annoying little programs that track your internet usage and send them back to their parent advertising companies...

I used spybot this past weekend and it did a good job, found 250 spyware files... can't personally endorse adaware, but I've heard good things about that as well... here are some links to download these programs:

http://www.download.com/3000-8022-10289035.html?tag=lst-0-5

http://www.download.com/3000-8022-10214379.html?tag

[tom]

thanks, i give it a try.

[slowburn]

hey tom if the programs help clean up your daughter's computer (and bruce's) then shouldn't I get like a prize or something? like a strap or *cough* hollow cobra *cough*

;)

[tom]

my choice?

[slowburn]

sure.

[dpeterson]

very nice popup blocker, allows you to bypass by hitting ctrl or shift, and it's freeware.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/eero.muhonen/FS/Support.htm

adaware is nice, there is another one called spybot search and destroy, can find it here:

http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,22262,00.asp

it found stuff that adaware didnt, and vice versa, just need to make sure you update either software everytime you use them to to have the latest data file, which is constantly updated. Sometimes they bury themselves so deep you have to do the dreaded format and re-install of windows. Only had to do this once on a buddys machine.

hope that helps.

thanks,
Dave

[jimmieb]

Originally posted by tom
very healthy attitude. since i'm not a serious computer guy how the heck do you get rid of pop ups? my daughters computer is unusable because of them. i tried a free blocker and it worked for a while, now there are pop ups for pop up blockers! bruce here is having the same problem at home. sorry to break into this thread, but i suspect you computer guys can help.

Hey Tom,

Pop ups are an invation code that usually uses the open port that is providing you the web page you are using. This is a code that rides or attaches itself to the web site you are using, basically speaking. There are thousands of these ports. MSN 9 or AOL 9 provides an excellent pop-up filter, and you can determine the degree of security you want. The next step is to use a firewall, Windows XP has one built in, but I don't feel like it's safe enough. 'Norton', or another software called 'Zone Alarm', or Pro Port are great software to protect your computer. A Firewall closes all traffic to the ports and either allows access to sites you preset or will ask you if you want allow access. Pro Port is best for that but is a little of a nuisance. It pops up with a simple message instead of something you don't want to see. Go with Norton and you can get a package deal with virus protection as well. When a I-net site is allowed in, it deposits a code in order to open a site faster the next time, it also is used by invaders to access your computer. These are called cookies. You can remove the cookies by going to; Start, then control panel, then I-net Options, then press the delete cookies tab. After that deploy a good Firewall. Worst case, you can change your URL address or IP address. Either way you need some kind of firewall to protect yourself and especially your kids. With all the crap float out there its a must. If you are on DSL you need virus and a firewall because your computer is always connected to the web as long as the computer is on. I'm not sure of the configurations on your computer so this advice may not be all accurate. I'm assuming you are on Windows XP, with MSN 9 or AOL 9 as I-Net providers.

Jimmie B

PS Web security can be fixed with these tools, but E-Mail traffic can only be filtered and separated as "junk mail" and is still accessable to anyone who want to open it.