powering my pedalboard problem!

[monterosso]

Hello guys! Recently I have entered this problem : I am using few stompboxes, these run on 9V DC (I use visual sound 1 spot). I also use Line 6 Dl4 which is 9V AC! I bought seperate powers supply for that since AC and Dc dont come together.

However when i plug them in chain there's a big loss of treble freq on true bypass mode. Only when i hit one of the effects the signal is normal again! why??? how can i overcome this problem?

[pipedwho]

If you have a really long cable (or high capacitance cable of normal length) between the end of your pedal chain and the input of your amp, then when you bypass the buffers in your pedals it is like adding all that cable between your guitar and amp. Guitar pickups are fairly high impedance in the grand scheme of things, and don't do very well driving long cable lengths.

When running long cables it's generally a good idea to run a buffer at the end (or start) of your pedal chain (either a clean boost set to unity gain, or some other 'inaudible' pedal). You could also consider using a shorter length of cable and/or find some very low capacitance cable.

If you don't use any pedals that like to 'interact' with the guitar (eg. certain fuzzes), then you could always go wireless. Besides the obvious benefit of having freedom of movement on stage, it will also provide an always-on buffer at the start of your signal chain. The active buffer amp in the wireless receiver will be able to drive any reasonable length of cable without any noticeable degradation.

[monterosso]

thanks for helping me out! I use 4m (12feet) evidence audio melody cable i dont know if that's low impendance? The funny thing for me is when i run the line 6 on Dc power supply the thing dosen't show up! I didnt need any buffer until now!

[dannopelli]

Are you using the line 6 PX2 power supply?

[pipedwho]

It sounds more like something is wrong with the DL4. I assume everything is fine when you take the DL4 out of the signal chain. The DL4 is definitely supposed to run from the 9VAC adapter (ie. not 9VDC).

[monterosso]

I do not use Original line 6 power supply but it's exactly as required 9VAC 1200ma. I thought the problem comes from combining DC and AC, effects are connected trhrough jacks it can mix everything up?

[dannopelli]

I do not use Original line 6 power supply but it's exactly as required 9VAC 1200ma. I thought the problem comes from combining DC and AC, effects are connected trhrough jacks it can mix everything up?

Lots of folks use a DL4 in line with other DC powered FX. So that is not likely it. Have you tried the Line 6 forum for help? Also Line 6 indicates the DL4 needs the draw to be 2000mA. Assuming that the following two posts are correct, it appears that your power supply is not strong enough. Possibly the cause of the malfunction.

Check this out:
http://line6.com/community/thread/14193

And this:
http://line6.com/community/docs/DOC-4269

Be sure to check out this comment. It is just below the chart in the above link:
The Stomp Box Modelers will also work under DC (Direct Current) at 12V, 500 mA minimum. The center pin is positive (yes, center pin is positive as opposed to the DC-1 power supply).

[Casper]

I have the T-rex Fuel Tank that powers my board!

[monterosso]

so why the hell line 6 writes on the back of the unit 9VAC 1200ma minimum i the original power supply is 9VAC 2000ma ? ;]

[dannopelli]

Pretty weird, I know. And I can't understand how it can work on both AC and DC current from the same plug?

Line 6 is a bit of a pain with some of their stuff. I have one of those Pocket Pods. Only works if I plug in the guitar, then unplug and plug again.

Have you considered a Voodoo Labs PP2? I have one and it does works well with a variety of pedals.

[pipedwho]

Good engineering design (considering all tolerances) says if a device can draw 1200mA, you must provide a power supply that is capable of _at least_ that amount. A 2000mA adapter would be much more reliable in the long run and be much less prone to over heating. But, theoretically, anything over 1200mA would also be fine.

Most AC inputs are fed into a bridge rectifier and filter capacitors to convert the AC into DC. The effect of putting DC into the input will just cause the power to be conducted down one leg of the bridge. If the rectifier is specified correctly (ie. with sufficient margin), then this can actually be better for the system. The trick with this is that 9VAC(RMS) comes out to just over 12V peak. And depending on filter cap size, transformer compliance, and peak load, this will probably droop down to something like 10 or 11 Volts.

So inputting a DC voltage between 10V and 12V would most likely be fine.

The reason AC/AC adapters like this are handy, is that they allow the low voltage AC output to be completely isolated from ground. ie. ground loops through the supply are avoided as the power supply is effectively 'floating' relative to earth (and other interconnected equipment grounds).

There are a few things that can go wrong here. One is that the AC power supply has one 'leg' of the output connected back into earth (on a three prong adapter). Another is that you may not have a solid earth anywhere in your chain (if everything is floating) - this could make you more susceptible to induced hum/buzz.

To further diagnose your problem, you'll need to minimise the amount of equipment in the chain that still shows up the problem. At this point, the problem could be anything from a power supply issue, broken true-bypass, or even a broken patch lead. If you report back here with the results of this, then it will be easier to find what is causing the problem. ie. does this happen with _just_ the DL4 in the chain?

[dannopelli]

I still keep coming back to your comment about it not happening when you use a DC power supply. You are losing highs, not adding noise. It just to me seems like a power issue. This kind of thing is just so reminiscent of what used to happen when we used batteries. That is what is making me think the 9V 1200mA supply you are using might be faulty. If you have the original power supply, I'd try that first. (If you or a friend has a POD, it uses the same supply, so maybe you can borrow one if necessary).

The only reason I suggest this before Pipedwho's suggestions, is my rule of thumb is always check the power first.

One other thing. Does this happen everywhere? Or just at your house, or where you practice? Homes are notorious for power issues. Heck we found out, after living in our house in VA for years, that the builder had never connected the ground.

I could be wrong. Been wrong lots of times. Good luck.

[pipedwho]

The only reason I suggest this before Pipedwho's suggestions, is my rule of thumb is always check the power first.

BTW, I completely agree with the above and everything else your saying.

In this case, it might be difficult to do a proper check as that kind of power supply isn't very common, and if you use a multi-meter to test it, it should be done under load (which can be difficult if you don't have an easy way to probe the wires while its plugged in).

I'm assuming here that the original 9VAC/2000mA power supply has been lost or is otherwise not readily available - if the original is still on hand, then that would definitely be the first thing I tried.

[BigE]

I also use a Voodoo Labs PP2, Love it. Are you using George L's? Especially a new one? If so, Check to see that its put together right. I had a problem like this, and it turned out to be the new cable. A little simple but you never know.

[chriswhite]

I also use a Voodoo Labs PP2, Love it. Are you using George L's? Especially a new one? If so, Check to see that its put together right. I had a problem like this, and it turned out to be the new cable. A little simple but you never know.
I've have the same setup (Voodoo Lab PP2 w/ George L's) and have had the similar issues as well.

[bud]

I also use a Voodoo Labs PP2, Love it. Are you using George L's? Especially a new one? If so, Check to see that its put together right. I had a problem like this, and it turned out to be the new cable. A little simple but you never know.
ditto. Great insight. I now always take an ohm reading on my George l's to confirm everything is within tolerances before I connect stuff. Even then I still have the occasional "where did my tone go?"

Also, don't know if anyone does this, but I read a Michael Thompson interview a long time ago that talked about using a drop of loctite (the mild form) on the GL end threads. I did that, and the connectors are all still sound after 3 years. It's the new ones that cause problems :o

[pipedwho]

George L's are like a time bomb waiting to go off. You're never quite sure if the ground connection is solid, if it's barely touching, or if it's within a bees dick of punching through the inner dielectric and shorting the two conductors together.

And if you haven't put the cable together yourself, you can't even be sure if it was done properly at all.

The inner conductor is fine as long as you push and twist the cable all the way in so the pin pushes deep into the core insulator. Done properly, that provides a large conducting surface area between the pin and the inner core conductor. However, I regularly see George L cables put together where the cable was only pushed in far enough so the centre pin just barely touched the inner conductor.

Also, when making up George L's, I always scallop out a small chunk of the outer insulation to maximise the metal to metal contact between the grub screw and the shield. Blindly hoping that the grub screw has pushed through the outer insulation, is making a reliable ground connection, and isn't too deep/close to shorting with the core, is too much of a gamble for my liking.

I much prefer the Lava solderless system for reliability - at least with those you can visually tell where you stand. And more importantly, they're also available with right-angle connectors.

[monterosso]

Guys! The problem has gone itself! I dont know what was the deal back then. The treble loss happened right after i used AC power supply for the first time. Now I run my DL4 into effects loop in my amp, I changed unit to alternate bypass (Not true bypass) to get rid of noisy punchy sound when i turned the unit on!

Here's sth about it: 'What causes popping in amplifiers?'

http://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/Tips.html

Now another thing came up. I borrowed Gator pedalboard, pro model with big power supply. It apeared that all my effects when powered to Gator power supply sound better, fatter than from 1spot. Now it's really discovery for me. Sound improves/changes when changing power supply only? ;/

[dannopelli]

Yes, your pedals want to see not only the proper volts but the proper amps too. Could be that the One Spot could not handle the power draw of all your pedals. But that said, the Gator that you are using is about the same as the one spot, (I think. I do not believe that each outlet is isolated, but I could be wrong on that.)

When you get ready to make or buy your own pedal board, I really would go with either the Furman SPB8 http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=SPB-8 or something else that allows you to use a Voodoo Labs PP2 http://www.voodoolab.com/pedalpower_2.htm. The downside to the Furman is it can't on its own, power Line 6 or 18V pedals. But it does have three 120V outlets, that allow you to use other power supplies with it, and a patch bay too. I have a Furman for about eight years now, no complaints lots of gigs. I also have a Pedal Train http://prostagegear.com/ a PP2. I like that real well too. And the Pedal Train makes it REALLY easy to route FX any way you want.

There are TONS of other alternatives. Here are just a few:

http://badapleguitar.com/ (These are REALLY nice!)
http://www.trailertrashpedalboards.com/
http://www.pedalboards.com/
http://www.pedalpad.com/

[BigE]

Everybody is happier with the right amount of power, I have a OneSpot(still do) but change to a Voodoo labs pp2 very soon after I got it. These things are designed around good, Steady power. Crazy to say but there is "Sweetspot" for power. To much and we all know what happens, but to little can cause all kinds of problems too!