Interesting Problem I am encountering with Crowdster Plus

[Shannon]

OK... here it is.

I just noticed that when my selector switch is UP... (acoustic only) and the electric volume knob is all the way UP or all the way DOWN... the guitar seems to operate normally...

HOWEVER... If I leave the switch int he same position and roll back (or forward) on the Electric volume Knob... the Electric pickup starts to come on to almost FULL volume (at the center) and then fades back to 0 as it approaches full volume or 0 volume...

What could be causing that?

Brand new (good) battery... and Lava Stereo splitter cable going to two completely separate rigs. (Psa1 and TC electronig G major on the electric side and Mama Bear on the acoustic)..

I'm baffeled...
and yes, the button is in the "Stereo" position... but just to be sure, I punched it and UN punched it and no change..

Any Ideas?

[tom]

that's a new and strange one. i guess without being able to touch it, we should try some diagnostics.
we have to figure out if it's relatd to the mix board or the switch or pot.
in stereo is the electric coming out the elec(tip) cable? and the acoustic out the ring cable?
if you put it in mono what does it do?
this will just be process of elimination but hopefully we can find it remotely and save a trip.

[Shannon]

Ok, here we go...

Testing it in stereo (which is how it was hooked up originally)
IT seems to split correctly... Electric goes to my Electric rig and doesn't seem to have any "taste" of acoustic in it... and Vice versa..
If I press the button..., to make it mono... EVERYTHING goes to the electric rig... which I think is normal, no?

IT seems to act appropriately in mono... Ie.. the blend knob does its job and the volume knob seems to work fine as well..


IN stereo mode in center position both volumes seem to work, but oddly the electric volume seems to have an odd curve to it... it seems like it ramps up really fast off of zero and there is not much change between 5 and 10... Acoustic volume seems fine and I can roll the electric volume off completely... and it does not bleed... but when I fiip it up to ACOUSTIC ONLY... that's where I get that odd bleed when I roll the electric volume anywhere toward the middle...

I hope I'm making sense.. :p

[tom]

all is normal except your taper should be better and the orig problem.
how is the taper when in mono with just electric on? both on?

[Shannon]

Taper seems the same in all positions that you just asked about.

Seems to ramp up fairly quick (by 4-5) and stay there with just a bit more gain at 10.

The problem is now more noticeable, of course, but probably just because I've NOTICED it...
Not sure how long this has been going on to be honest, but now every time I flip that switch up to acoustic only, I hear the bleed unless I just HAPPEN to have the electric volume all the way up or down (which is fairly uncommon since I like to roll back the volume to clean up the gain a little bit...

[tom]

did some fiddling with one here and can't get a hint of bleed.
the pot could just be bad or funny for your ears. either way we can send a new one.
the bleed is a little bewildering. the electric and acoustic are truly separate in stereo. you can remove the battery and the electric will still work. do you have a different cable you could just test with? another thought, is the electric bleed coming through the acoustic amp or the electric amp? you can tell for sure by turning off the amps individually for the test.

[Shannon]

did some fiddling with one here and can't get a hint of bleed.
the pot could just be bad or funny for your ears. either way we can send a new one.
the bleed is a little bewildering. the electric and acoustic are truly separate in stereo. you can remove the battery and the electric will still work. do you have a different cable you could just test with? another thought, is the electric bleed coming through the acoustic amp or the electric amp? you can tell for sure by turning off the amps individually for the test.

The electric bleed is coming through the acoustic amp.
I wouldn't have the first clue what to do with the pot if you sent it to me..

Well, that's not completely true, but frankly, the idea of tearing apart and soldering on a $4,000 guitar is not all too appetizing to me...

I was planning to send the guitar to you to have the ++ mod done anyway, so maybe you guys can fix it when I do that... How does that sound? The neck/action needs adjusted too, so maybe it can be a "tune up" all around for my favorite guitar.


It's odd... and it's NEW... that's really all can say about it. It hasn't always done this... not as far as I can remember. I actually ONLY use the guitar in Stereo mode with two separate rigs... I had a stereo hybrid guitar before I bought the Crowdster, so I already had dual rigs and never had the need to run it in mono/blend mode...

It's really evident in my studio setup... which is where I happen to be right now... and why I hopped on to check this thread.


Oh, and it's a "high dollar" Lava cable and I don't have a spare, but I DO have a splitter and a couple of mono cords that I can test it with...
I'll report back after I do so.

[Shannon]

Ok, different cable setup...
Still there.
BUT, not as audible... oddly.

However, I can still see the signal on my TC electronic G-major when the electric volume is between about 2 and 8, and it is the strongest at 5..

This is through a TRS to dual mono (Tip/Ring) splitter and two separate guitar cables running to different (completely isolated) rigs...

I can't explain it... but I know it can't be right.

[Shannon]

Oh, and let me just say...

The simple fact that I am receiving assistance troubleshooting this issue from the man who's NAME is on my guitar's headstock... is incredibly reassuring...

I can't recall ever receiving this kind of personal service from any manufacturer of ANY product at ANY price in my 35 years of life...

This, my friends is how a company creates a lifetime customer...

Albeit... I may be a relatively poor (financially) lifetime customer... I will be a customer nonetheless...:p

[tom]

the one at the shop for sure is not doing that so there must be something wrong with yours. if it's coming in for ++ we can take care of everything. we'll listen for this problem before we take it apart so we can figure it out. will be interesting to see if it shows up in my test rig, if not i'll hook up the whole mess and give it a go till i find it. it does it all the time, yes? not intermittently? were you planning on sending it in soon?

[Shannon]

Yes, all the time... Not intermittent.

And sorry, I mis typed above.. the bleed is in the ELECTRIC rig.. not the acoustic rig.
It is coming through fully effected (if that matters) and it's coming from the electric amp. It is faint... especially when the acoustic is blasting (as it usually is in my setup) and that's probably why it took me so long to notice it. It take just the right combination of events to really stand out to me. (except now I consciously know how to make those events happen so apparently I SUB consciously do it way more often...)

I was planning to send it out in the next week or so.. I remember you said you'd be ready for retro's by March 1st, but I had a potentially important gig on the 12th, so I didn't want to push it..
Turns out that gig is a no go... so I may try to send it out next week.... if that's ok.

If there is a better time for me to send it, just say the word.... I'm flexible and the guitar still WORKS, so I've still been using it every Sunday to lead Worship... I just have to remember to NOT switch to the acoustic only position.. (even when I want acoustic only) but to just roll the volume down with my volume pedal or the pot...
It's only caught me a couple of times, but I seriously doubt 99% of the congregation had any clue... ;)

Just like most guitarists... I'm sure I'm WAY more concerned about tonal perfection than anyone actually LISTENING to my music is:p

[tom]

send it as soon as is good for you. we'll get it figured out. should turn it round a few days.

[Shannon]

Ok... I'll try to get it out early in the week.

Do you have a preferred shipper?
I typically use Fedex Ground for bigger packages, but if you work with a specific shipper, just let me know. I'm just going to pack it back up in the original box... I assume that's fine.

[Shannon]

Ok,
I'm getting ready to ship my baby out there..

But I just realized..
I have no idea WHERE to send it...

Is there a specific address for service work? I know TAG isn't a huge company, but I don't know that your "shipping/receiving" processes are, so I figured I might be well served to get a specific address.

Sorry about that.

[tom]

regular shipping address is fine
2697 Lavery Ct. #27
newbury park, ca 91320

[Son of Anderson]

It doesn't appear there is any contact information on the new website (unless I just couldn't find it).

[Shannon]

It doesn't appear there is any contact information on the new website (unless I just couldn't find it).


Wait, I did find that address on the new site.
It's under the "Support" tab.
Just takes some time to get used to the new format, but I LOVE the new site in general.
Looks very nice.

I know this probably isn't the appropriate place for this question, but I'm just curious...

Is the "Tone" of the Crowdster Plus Plus similar to that of the old semi-hollow (or I guess you called them hollow) Atom guitars with two pickups?

I have really been jonesin' for another tag... and I have always loved the look of the Atom with the silver bigsby setup and it looks like my Crowdster will LOOK similar (minus the bigsby of course) but I'm curious how similar it will sound...

I'm still hoping one day to be able to get a Koa "sister" Atom/bigsby for my Crowdster as well, but I'm hoping this can satisfy the itch for maybe another year... so I can save up some more "play" money...

[tom]

crowdster and atom would not be the "same". strings and bridge alone will make a difference.

[Shannon]

crowdster and atom would not be the "same". strings and bridge alone will make a difference.


Oh yeah, Tom, I completely understand that...

What I meant was would they have similar "tonal possibilities" obviously given their differences in bridge and strings.

I mean, I was under the impression that our Crowdster pickups were designed specifically to provide a good "electric" response to the bronze strings... which leads me to believe that we are at least somewhat compensating for the string difference with the pickup...

I do understand the difference in the two bridges... so I can assume that the Atom will have much more "attack" and a much "brighter" sound in general with the metal bridge... (and maybe not as much so with the bigsby)...


Of course, another difference will depend on my pickup configuration when I order the Atom... I'll probably go with the 3 pickup setup... with the "h" style pickup at the bridge at least... not sure about the others...

I sure wish there was someplace to see some good video clips of all of the TAG lineup so I could get a true feel for what my options are.
Maybe that would be a good suggestion for the new website!

[tom]

your assumptions are good. the tightness of the strings alone greatly affects what the pickup hears. the pure electric will have a broader spectrum of tones as well.

[Shannon]

You're killin me...


I gotta figure out what I can sell...:p
I sold a 1970 Cadillac to buy the Crowdster...
But I'm not selling my 'Cuda :p

I don't see ANY Atom's with Bigsby's out there in any dealer inventory..
So I guess I'm going to have to order anyway...

Maybe later in the year I can work that out.

Is it still possible to order Koa topped guitars? I saw that you build a C++ in Koa... So I figured maybe you had some more slabs to work with...

[tom]

yes we still have a reasonable supply of koa.
i have a bigsby loaded atom special available

[Shannon]

Is it the black one?
OR has that one sold?

Just curious...
what makes it a "Special" versus a standard Atom?
It is a solid Mahogany body AND top?

What color is it?

[tom]

never owned a black one. this one is amber to medium brown burst, solid mahogany, no top.

[Shannon]

Oh,
I didn't realize you were talking about one of your PERSONAL guitars...
I was just looking at pics of a black one on the website...

So is THAT what "special" means... Solid with no top?

Oh, and as I was packing my guitar up to send to you... I realized where the name Atom... came from...

I know, not rocket science, but I just happened to look at your logo... and BOOM, it smacked me in the face...
Clever.:cool:

So Mine will be on the way to you tonight...


Would you mind sending pics and info about the Atom that you're selling to me?

[tom]

get an email address and i'll send a photo and specs.
you can email me at the address on the site.

[Shannon]

Done.
Check your email when you get a chance..

Thanks,
Shannon.

[Pietro]

Shannon,

One of our less-vocal-these-days members, Marso, had a Crowdster Plus, decided he wanted to play more "electric", got an Atom, and tells me he rarely pays the Crowdster Plus anymore he loves the Atom so much.

I'd love to hear your thoughts as you compare your Crowdster Plus 2 (You are getting the upgrade, no?) to an Atom special (which I GAS for also).

I'll be making a careful comparison of the Crowdster Plus 2 and the Cobra (both hollow, both two-pickup) next Friday (I hope) when my Crowdster Plus (now Plus 2) is back from Newbury Park.

Can't wait...

[Shannon]

Shannon,

One of our less-vocal-these-days members, Marso, had a Crowdster Plus, decided he wanted to play more "electric", got an Atom, and tells me he rarely pays the Crowdster Plus anymore he loves the Atom so much.

I'd love to hear your thoughts as you compare your Crowdster Plus 2 (You are getting the upgrade, no?) to an Atom special (which I GAS for also).

I'll be making a careful comparison of the Crowdster Plus 2 and the Cobra (both hollow, both two-pickup) next Friday (I hope) when my Crowdster Plus (now Plus 2) is back from Newbury Park.

Can't wait...


Yeah, I'm really hoping to figure out a way to make that happen without disrupting the happy harmony of my home...;)

The Atom Special that Tom has is beautiful... and it would compliment my C+ wonderfully. (and yes, it is soon to be a ++, as "Rowdy the Crowdy" is on it's way to Cali as we speak)

I was mulling over pickup choices for the Atom and whether to go with the more "traditional" two pickup config or to go with the 3... Tom has been gracious enough to offer me some objective feedback to help with that decision..
It sure would be nice to be able to PLAY one myself first, but there's only one dealer even remotely close to me and I don't believe they have any Atom Specials in stock...

What I like about the two pickup Atom is that it kind of combines the best of the Strat and the Paul in one guitar (only obviously WAY better):p
Single coil style pickup at the neck and a nice, toasty warm 'bucker at the bridge...
ooo and that bigsby... yummmm

When you build Guitars like these, you don't have to be a good salesman...

But, I LOVE the sound of my C+ in Stereo through both of my rigs and that makes my straight electrics almost feel naked to me now... so after I get the neck pickup, I'm not sure if ANY guitar will ever "replace" it in my "regular" gig...
(My guitar playing is still primarily just SUPPORT for my singing at this point, though I am slowly coming into my own as a "player" as well ;))


Pietro,
Seems you and I have pretty similar gear tastes.... I see you on the TGP (I think that's the one) and it's always cool to see what you're "messin with" from time to time.

Ever messed with an Axe-FX ultra? I have the Eleven rack and I'm considering (though only lightly) trying an AFX out.. (but if my next gear purchase is between the AFX and the Atom... I think I know my choice;)

[Pietro]

I'm totally unable to afford even the regular Axe-FX at this point, but I am doing some "modeling" when I lead worship on the weekends right now with my POD XT Pro.

It works great, but yesterday I played for a little while with somebody and I plugged in my Dr. Z instead.

Oh MAN... I'm not ready to abandon tube amps just yet... And I wasn't even listening directly to the amp, I was monitoring through the PA monitors.

[tom]

curious how you're liking the eleven rack. i've been corresponding with a guy from digi design and he was telling me about it. also have been speaking to a fairly high profile guy who just got a bunch of guitars from us "who will remain nameless because of contractual issues" and he's using 2 fractal units for his live sound.
i'm not ready to commit the time to learning that kind of system because i enjoy the on the fly, seat of the pants live thrills, but i imagine they are great recording tools.

[bud]

curious how you're liking the eleven rack.

uh-oh, the "dark side" is calling. watch out Tom :)

[Pietro]

i'm not ready to commit the time to learning that kind of system because i enjoy the on the fly, seat of the pants live thrills, but i imagine they are great recording tools.

My concern exactly. I modeled for a long time, and I just absolutely love being able to tweak on the fly, usually during rehearsal (on the weekend, I don't tweak during a service at all), but it's too much fun. The POD XT Live is easy to do that with. The Axe-FX and ElevenRack look less so. Am I wrong? Anybody?

[tom]

no worries bud. last weekend it was the bambino, m9 and a boost. had a blast.

[Shannon]

Well, I've had it about a week and honestly, SO FAR, I have not been able to get anything CLOSE to the true tone and feel of my Fender Pro Tube Supersonic just yet. So no, I'm not near ready to replace my tube amps with Modeling quite yet.

I DO have to say that so far, aside from one VERY short demo of the AFX Ultra, this is by far the best modeler I've played... and I've basically played them all...

The only straight amp modeler that I think FEELS better (and sounds better right now because I'm still learning this Eleven) is my Sansamp PSA1.
I honestly believe that thing COULD fool a lot of pros in a blind "taste test" But, of course, it does not have ANY of the effects options or the pro tools interface...

My favorite "non-Tube amp" feel and tone so far has come from my PSA1 with my TC G-major in the effects loop all run into my Genz Benz Shen Pro acoustic amp on full FET (it has tube pre's in it too)...

I used to run the peizo of "Rowdy" (my C+) into one channel and the electric in the other and honestly, it was a VERY pleasant sound and the feel was not bad...
But the true tube amp feel started calling my name so I gave the supersonic a shot... and I like it A LOT going through my TC G-System in the "4 wire method" as they call it..

Really nice tones and feel... BUT it is a TON of gear on stage for leading worship... and of course, to get really yummy tone out of that supersonic, you have to turn it up and like all Fenders it gets STUPID loud... you CAN attenuate it...but I'm not IN LOVE with the attenuated tone...

Thus, I've been considering switching BACK to modeling at church and using the SS and G-system when we play out...

Truth is, I'm a bit of a gear Junky and like the rest of us... I'm in the never ending, relentless pursuit of that "perfect tone" which I am CONVINCED does not exist:p But I'm gonna keep searching.

I really think this Eleven Rack has GREAT potential and I'm gonna tweak on it for a good long time before I give up on it...
Heck the Pro Tools interface is reason enough to keep it in my studio for now... It pairs wonderfully with my Digi 002 board...

Anyway, if there's some interest, I'll post some more thoughts here on the board (in the appropriate forum, of course) as I get deeper into it...

Oh, and Pietro..
The Eleven is MUCH easier to Tweak on the go than the AFX is. It has real time "pots" on the front panel that you can grab and twist at will... you can adjust gain, eq and whatever pots that the particular modeled amp has in "real life" right there on the front of the unit.. with big REAL knobs... (though they don't FEEL exactly like a good solid physical pot should...it's better than the option on the AFX)

And, it doesn't hurt that I got it new for about 1/3 the price of the AFX ultra... Hard to argue with those "economics" at this stage in my career.


Man, I'm long winded...
Sorry guys:(

[Shannon]

i'm not ready to commit the time to learning that kind of system because i enjoy the on the fly, seat of the pants live thrills, but i imagine they are great recording tools.


The thing about that though, Tom, is that if you tend to play a pretty fixed set of tunes when you play out... it can be really nice to have the option of tweaking until you find your "holy grail" tone for each tune (or SET of tones for each tune) and then SAVE and NAME them appropriately... and then run a nice simple midi footboard and have everything right there at your feet...

Then, as I said above... you have the option of grabbing and twisting a knob if you want a little more "fat" or bite or whatever on the fly...

[tom]

you mentioned the "perfect tone" above. for me that's a moving target so the presets aren't as appealing for me. i actually enjoy the challenge of having to figure it out as i'm playing, and i may play something totally different from week to week, it just depends on how everyone else is playing. we have a fairly large pool of musicians so it can vary pretty much from week to week. all good, just a different feel in dynamics. that's the part i love the challenge of.
i seem to be enjoying a simpler rig lately. it's making me think about what i'm playing more than what i'm using and that's a good thing.

[Shannon]

i seem to be enjoying a simpler rig lately. it's making me think about what i'm playing more than what i'm using and that's a good thing.

Exactly!
For me, I really want to get past the point of worrying about tone and just get back to playing.
That's what I love about the crowdster... I was CONSTANTLY trying to make my Taylor 414 sound better plugged in and I just couldn't focus on playing and singing as much as I wanted to... Once I got the crowdster... I really fell back in love with just PLAYING live... it is literally plug and play on the acoustic side!
The electric side always lends itself to more tweaking and you're right... it really is a dynamic thing... so even when I DID use presets, I would still fiddle with them from week to week.
I'm excited to see how the neck pickup (and the combination of the two) brings out my electric tonal possibilities...
But I'm sure it's just going to make me want an Atom even more:(


I really wish I new more of the technical side of electric guitars... I think it would help me to understand why certain positions/pickups etc. make so much difference in TONE and what sorts of amp settings and effects tend to pair with which pickup selections..

I'm thinking that DVD might help with that...

[tom]

got the offending guitar back here and got to play a while with it.
what you're hearing is crosstalk happening in the stereo cable. the acoustic signal is bleeding into the electric line. i have 3 different cables here and they vary as to how much you can hear. i must say you must have great ears to hear it as with my best cable i had to turn the acoustic amp all the way off to hear any signal through the electric amp.
will get on the plus 2 conversion next.

[Shannon]

Thanks Tom.

Can you hear how it changes as you roll the electric volume knob from 0 to 10?
It's clearly loudest at 5... and it's weird as heck to my ear. Oh, and for what it's worth... I only NOTICE it audibly when my acoustic amp was way down or off... But since they're both going to the board... I could see a signal (and hear it) coming from the amplified channel.

But thanks... I'd like to believe that I do have a fairly discerning ear... (which is why I have become a Tom Anderson "fan boy" as they say... the best ears need the best gear... :p

Like I said, it's RARE that I flip the switch to full acoustic anyway, but I somehow stumbled across this in the course of playing one of our tunes at rehearsal and you know how it is... once you hear something, it's almost impossible to get it out of your head.

I'm so excited about the Plus/Plus I can hardly contain myself:D
Pietro seems to be VERY happy with the conversion and we have similar rigs, so I think I'm going to be super happy too.

I'm missing "Rowdy" already... I had rehearsal tonight and I was wanting to play my strat, but it just sounds weak on stage compared to the Crowdster. Since I virtually never play "electric only" I am so used to having some acoustic tone coming through even on my more "electric" songs that when I play the Strat by itself it just sounds wimpy to me.:p

Mr. Anderson, you have created a monster in me.. :D

And I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing so... haha.

Oh, and don't forget to check my neck setup while you're in there.... I think it might need a very minor tweak... ( it has been two years, ya know and in YOUR words.. I'm "heavy handed":p ).

[tom]

the neck was way more front bowed than it should be, but an easy adjustment made it right. no wonder intonation may have sounded off.
am still waiting for baggs to call me back about the bleed. i suspect it has something to do with how they keep the mags passive with all the active stuff around it.

[Shannon]

the neck was way more front bowed than it should be, but an easy adjustment made it right. no wonder intonation may have sounded off.
am still waiting for baggs to call me back about the bleed. i suspect it has something to do with how they keep the mags passive with all the active stuff around it.


Yeah, I knew the neck needed a "tweak" but like I said.. it HAS been two years, so it's not too surprising and not being much of a guitar tech myself, (and not trusting anyone local to touch my single largest music gear investment to date) I just lived with it. I'm glad you guys got that worked out... The intonation was starting to get a little more bothersome ESPECIALLY when I was doing capo work.

Just curious... have you ever been able to reproduce that bleed in another C+?

[tom]

yes, they all do the same as yours. i have never heard it since the acoustic amp has to be off to hear it. having the guitar in all acoustic mode with the amp off isn't something i would ever test for. i got out a db meter to try to read the level on the bleed and could not even get a reading because it is so small compared to the normal signal level. rolling the acoustic volume off also makes it go away. i guess you should win a prize for finding it, but since at least a few hundred people have had the chance and failed, it must not be a serious problem for others. and like i said before, there was a big difference in the 3 cables i tried, none of which are "expensive" ones.
it's all ready to come home now.

[Shannon]

yes, they all do the same as yours. i have never heard it since the acoustic amp has to be off to hear it. having the guitar in all acoustic mode with the amp off isn't something i would ever test for. i got out a db meter to try to read the level on the bleed and could not even get a reading because it is so small compared to the normal signal level. rolling the acoustic volume off also makes it go away. i guess you should win a prize for finding it, but since at least a few hundred people have had the chance and failed, it must not be a serious problem for others. and like i said before, there was a big difference in the 3 cables i tried, none of which are "expensive" ones.
it's all ready to come home now.


Sweet... I'll take a prize! You can throw a T-shirt or strap in the box for me!
I never sent my little registration form in cause I kinda wanted to hold on to the "case candy" as they call it... but it's still in the case if you want to take it out... :p

Well, I DO have a "relatively" expensive cable, so I can assume that it's not going to get any better..
And it hasn't been a show stopper for me EVER, so I'm sure it won't be now;)

Ready to come home already?
Great!

So how do we "settle up?"