bending high E string , #.9 gauge

[Big Harry]

Hi Tom and guys !
It seems the problem with my #9 high E string continues ,and I am start to beleive floyd equiped andy's are not friendly to my #.9 string sets ...:eek:

After adjusting the best action without any buzz and slightly curved bow , I noticed choking of high E string (turns in buzz because is touching higher fret ) when bending from say 15th fret and up .

Also , when using floyd arm for vibrato on already bended E string , tone dies on the slightest floyd arm movement , because string is touching the frets again.
(On my Ibanez 7 vwh , such a thing is not possible , I can bend and vibrate with tremolo arm as much as I want , tone is still there ,even with the lowest possible string set up , neck is 17" radius here )

Problem becomes less if action is adjusted very high , and neck in straight position , but than playing becomes unpleasant .

Also , when sighting from Floyd to the nut direction , I have a feeling the last two three frets (20, 21,22) are on the highest point comparing to the rest of the frets in the line (bow curve) . More , it looks like a neck bow curve is very uniform in the curvature from 1st to 15th fret , but than going very sharply (forming a pick ) from say 17th to 22th fret .
Is this might be just optical illusion ?

Problem is much less with B string (but still there ) , or with #10 string gauge in high E position .
With my Fender YJM , problem is simply solved with rising up E string saddle , no need for tweaking a neck .

Is this might be a problem of higher frets , neck bow , floyd saddles height and radius to match neck radius , or limits in neck radius vs string action ?

Please help !


Thanks ,
Zoran

There is Tom's quote from the 2005 or so .. ....

floyds aren't really any radius. we have to shim the saddles to match our necks. they are 12-14 now, and have been for several years. prior to that they were a straight 12". because of the shallow string angle of the floyd saddles, they have a tendency to not ring as pure especially on the plain strings, and especially especially if you use .009's.

[tom]

there are several things that make an optical illusion when looking down a neck, wood grain being the most obvious.
have you checked action height since you've done neck adjustments? it should be 1/16" off the last fret. remember, you have jumbo frets so the strings will appear high off the fingerboard because the frets are so tall. usually too much front bow will make things worse at the upper frets.
other things can contribute to the sound of fretting out. the string will slide up the wall of the floyd saddle, sometimes running into a burr making a sizzling sound.
shimming saddles is always a possibility, but the radius should have been correct whe it left here

[Big Harry]

no ,it is definitely (my ) optical illusion , I checked it out from the nut to bridge , everything is perfect :)

string height on the 22nd fret is less than 1/16 " (about 1.52 mm?) , will check how much exactly , but should be only about 1,30 mm .....

it seems that jumbo frets height is messing around here , so I raised action a little bit and adjust bow to the reasonable curve , slightly before neck becomes too straight and G string become too stiff ( which is my reference for neck tweaking) .

also , I'll try again with #.10 string set .

the main problem with TAG guitar is that they are too perfect , so any disturbance in the system is so visible . :D

maybe 14-16" neck radius instead of 12-14" might be better idea for the for floyds and jumbo frets equiped TAg's as well .

Thanks for the tips Tom ,

Cheers,
Zoran
ps
this evening I recorded with TAG and I can tell you , this is an amazing sounding guitar , with Mesa Road King II dual rec :cool: no more looking for the grail tone , I already got it !

[Big Harry]

from other side , Rich Harris from Ibanez Rules , recommend very high action and said : if you have less than 2 mm (much more than 1/16" ) on the 24th fret , you got a wrong guitar , meaning you can't use all the benefits from Ibanez Edge lo pro tremolo , strings will be choked on the bends and tremolo use , beyond 15th fret .
but still I have nice clearing even with unbelievable 1,14 mm (!!!) on the 24th fret and jumbo frets on my 7vwh , simply because of 17 " neck radius (which is a little bit too much flat , btw)

Tom , one naive question : did you ever consider to made neck with larger radius (for Floyd's users ) than 12-14" ?
If not , why so ?
Thanks
Zoran

[tom]

no, don't care for the feel of the flatter neck and have not had issues with bendability. you seem to have different ideas about setup based on tension of individual strings which i don't completely understand.

[Big Harry]

Bend (vibrato) ability : high E string , bending from 15th fret to 18th fret note (G to #A ) and then vibrate it with tremolo , in the bended , #A position ( making #A note from the G note on the 15th fret while bending ) .
How to achieve this bended # A note to vibrate with tremolo and to make it alive and sustainable ?
(sorry for broken English )
Thanks ,
Zoran

[tom]

if you're asking me how to play, i can't help you. i've seen many people that can make a guitar fret out when i can make it play clean. there are many components to a person's touch. the movement of their left hand fingers, how tightly they grip the strings, the angle at which the pick hits the string, the force with which they pick the string, whether they pull the string up when they pick it, the kind of pick used, what kind of edge the pick has, the list goes on and on. some things work fine for one gauge of string then have diminishing returns when the string gets lighter. i suspect you're on the edge of tolerable with strings as light as a .009.

[Big Harry]

i suspect you're on the edge of tolerable with strings as light as a .009.

Yes , that shoul be the case , simple as is .

[Big Harry]

Yes , that shoul be the case , simple as is .

I was wrong here , it is about something else .
I did try #10 E gauge , but no luck , the same problem as with #9 .

So ,my conclusion is that 12-14" neck radius has limits for my style of bending and floyd use on the high frets with the E string , even with 2mm clearance .

For everything else , this is the best neck I've ever tried.

I wish this axe has 12-16" or 14-16" neck radius .
Or even better , the same neck (12-14") but E string to work as good as B string during extreme bending , without a chocking (see photo ).

It will be perfect guitar for my style of playing , but nothing is perfect .:( :)
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm38/Zormar/tag%20photo%20show/IMG_5452.jpg

[markus]

What are you doing to these poor strings, Zoran??? :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

[tom]

this is pretty simple geometry. you are starting with the string at the bottom of the hill. you are pushing the string over the top of the hill and are coming down the other side. when the string hits the top of the hill is stops ringing. to compound the problem, when you depress the arm you are lowering the action making it hit the peak sooner.you either need a flatter neck, that will feel like a flatter neck or you raise the action.

[Big Harry]

What are you doing to these poor strings, Zoran??? :eek: :eek: :eek: :D
luckily , I am no doing that all the time :cool: , just from time to time .

[bruce]

Looking at the pic, the action looks very very very low at the high frets... apparently too low for bending strings.

[Big Harry]

Hi Bruce ,
Thanks for the input .
Please can you check something for me : choose one TAG from your store with jumbo SS and Floyd and try to bend first E string from 15th fret .
Please tell me when the string will stop ringing if the clearance is 1,5 mm (1/16" as provided ) .
Then , try it with 2 mm spacing and touch the floyd once you reach A or B note (from G note at 15th fret to 17th or 18th ) .

In my case tone dies even with 2 mm clearance on E string, on A note , bended from 15th fret , and no chance to touch the floyd , tone dies immediately , because this new floyd pull the strings down very , very , very much as you can see on the picture : because B string is extremely bended (altogether with G and D string ) , floyd goin' down , all the strings going down , making illusion of no clearance .
Without bending , there is 1,5 mm on the E string , 22nd fret .

On my hand made strat : 7,5 " neck radius , Jumbo SS , less than 1.5 mm clearance , I can bend from 15th (G) to 18th (B) and using floyd (OFR ) I will bend it to C tone (!!!) , E string will still ring .
If you want I can send a video .

Summary :
After checking more than 20 guitars last week at local store (including 3 of mine ) I can see clearly where the problem is .

First , my old OFR (25 years or so ) doesn't pull strings so much down as the new one does .

Second , fretboard area from 15th to 22nd fret is slightly raised comparing to the rest of the neck , and I can not change that with any neck tweaking .
Even with straight neck , that area is still the highest point in the system , which causes not enough clearance for bending from 15th fret and up .
The bottom (deepest point in the bow) is not in the middle of the neck ,but somewhere after 12 -13 th fret , and then immediately neck curve is going "up to the hill " as Tom says .
The highest point is 22nd fret , just for the hair higher than 21st or 2oth fret .
That part in the neck I can not adjust , except to polish the last few frets down ???
Any idea how to fix it ?
Thanks ,
Zoran
ps
sorry if I publish this problem with my lovely TAG ,otherwise this is the best axe ever .

EDIT : I just noticed difference in fret board thickness . It is going thicker and thicker from the nut to the end of the neck .
I hope this is normal .
If not , that can be one of the reason ?????

[tom]

the uphill i'm talking about is the radius not the length of the neck. i can't even begin to address the things you think you are seeing. you have come to many conclusions i find impossible to come to.

[Big Harry]

reading between the lines I understand we should close this discussion without addressing the issues " I am thinking I seeing " , just like that ???
i can live with that ,but what about guitar playability ?

[tom]

i think you like the playability of a flatter neck radius and i do not. i can live with that and i can still call you my friend.

[markus]

I think that's well put by Tom.
It's a pretty classic case of personal preference again. I used to play Musicman JP6s and they had 15" necks, which was way too flat for my comfort. The 12-14" radius on Andersons works well for me... but then again, I don't do any of these extreme bends like you do, Zoran.
You just got your Fat'n Sexy Redy a couple of months ago and my advise would be to give it another few months before you come up with your final verdict on her. However, if you figure in the end that Andersons aren't for you due to your preference for flatter necks, then that's a fair conclusion to come to in my opinion.

[Big Harry]

i think you like the playability of a flatter neck radius and i do not. i can live with that and i can still call you my friend.
and vice versa !! :) :) :)

[Big Harry]

You just got your Fat'n Sexy Redy a couple of months ago and my advise would be to give it another few months before you come up with your final verdict on her.

you are right Markus , good advice , thanks ! :)

[pipedwho]

I've been following this and thought I'd double check what happens when I do this on mine.

My action is just below 2mm, so I'm guessing it's probably set up the same. (Keep in mind that my guitar, a circa '98 Drop Top, has been set up quite a few time since it left the TAG factory.)

Anyway, I can safely bend the 'e' string at the 15th fret all the way from a G to a C without the string buzzing out. The Floyd dips slightly, but not enough to cause it to fret-out. I can wiggle the Floyd for vibrato up there and it's ok, however, if I go crazy and pull up too far, it does eventually fret-out. But, then again, I can easily make any string fret out without bending at all if I pull up far enough.

The amount of 'action drop' that can be attributed to the Floyd is directly determined by the longitudinal distance between the knife edges and the point where the string touches the saddle. If your Floyd is not set parallel to the body, then the bend to action-drop ratio will change slightly (but probably not enough to make an appreciable difference).

If yours is fretting out without you even touching the Floyd arm, then I suspect something isn't quite right. As for fretting out when you go crazy with the whammy bar, then it's very possible that the neck geometry of 12-14" isn't enough for your style of play.

You also mentioned that the upper frets are rising in relation to the lower frets. This is not the case on mine, where the frets are in the subtle ramp shape falling from the lower frets to being virtually straight towards the 22nd. Maybe something happened to your neck in shipping? It's worth getting it professionally checked by a reputable technician if you think this might be the case. As that is definitely not how it should be.

BTW, after having a bit of fun bending crazy notes up there, I might have to start doing that more often. :)

[Big Harry]

Hi pipedwho ,
Very valid observations , thanks for sharing it .
Cheers,
Zoran

[markus]

Alright... Mr. Zoran's problem kept me thinking and tonight my tired brain finally remembered to see how far I can bend my E string. The comparison might not be completely accurate as I play .010s with Medium frets and I'm also tuned down to Drop Db, so I have a bit less tension on the strings.

Anyway, I can easily bend the E string from the 15th fret Gb to B or even C without it fretting out. No problems using the Floyd while bending either. In fact, I can use it pretty excessively and the E string still doesn't fret out.

Not sure where this leaves you, Zoran. As I said the comparison might not be valid with all the differences in equipment and setup. However, I do know where it left me: My fingers are now hurting like hell from all the weird bending!!! :D :D :D

[markus]

And here are the detailed specs of my Drop Top - which reminds me that I still owe you guys pictures of this beauty... :eek: :D :o

Serial - 08-24-09A
Model - Drop Top
Body Finish - Trans Plum to Black Burst
Body Wood - Quilted Maple Top on Mahogany
Neck Wood - Hard Rock Maple, Rosewood Fretboard
Neck Finish - Black Headstock, Satin Back
Nutwidth - 1 11/16 in
Frets - Medium
Back Shape - Even Taper Oversized .030 inch
Hardware - Chrome
Bridge - Sunken Floyd Rose
Pickguard -
Pickups - HC1 HC3
Switching - 5 Way, Pull on Tone Knob splits middle position, V Boost all
Strings - .010-.046 Elixir strings
Comments -

[GaryMac]

Forget "Bend it Like Beckham", hows about Bend it Like Zoran.

I read a quote somewhere where a guitar player said "if you spend a lot of time above the 12th fret, sell the guitar and buy yourself a mandolin."

Hollow Drop Top Bulldog quilt top Mandolin with f-holes, a piezzo and a Floyd Rose.

Could be a gap in the market for you to fill there Tom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Big Harry]

Hi Markus ,
Thanks for sharing it .
Yes it is a little bit different set up .
I am thinking to put ten's Elixirs and dropp it to Eb .

Anyway , I made my neck almost straight (almost no releif ) and with just hair less clearance at 22nd fret than 2 mm , and now , E strings doesn't fret out at high register as with releif proposed by TA .
Also I am keeping E string fine tuner in the highest position , which keeps the string away from frets as well .
It took me a few days to use on it , but now I like it !

I can not live without that guitar ! :mad:

And , yes , you still own us a photo ! :cool:


Gary ,
You forgot Jumbo SS on that TA mandolin !:p

Cheers,
Zoran