Pedal Board Gain Staging??

[Casper]

Situation: If I am running my pedal board (which has mostly true-bypass pedals) in front of my preamp..(out of last pedal into my clean channel 1 input)...does the way I set my preamp or postamp up on the amplifier have anything to do with levels or response of the pedalboard?

the reason I'm asking is that lately at gigs, I feel like I am having to really bump the level of my pedals up to match my dry (uneffected) sound. (ex: my Barber Tone press level is almost at 3:00 on level and I am getting a popping sound when engaged? The other pedals are using more of the level too and I don't feel like I have as much of a tonal pallet as I did?
any thoughts??
Shaun
PS. I don't use my FX loop either..too many cables as it is..

[Babow2]

I don't profess to know the answer. However, Guitar Player magazine did an extensive study of pedalboards, power, switching, etc.. in an issue within the past year. There was a lot of info regarding true bypass vs. non, gain, signal loss, etc... and several opinions. One of the comments I recall is that with true bypass pedals, the length of the total run from guitar, cable, through pedals and cables to the amp without any buffers can be long enough to generate signal loss. One commentator suggested having a buffered signal or pedal in the chain for that very reason.

So, even though the true bypass circuit might prevent tone loss from the pedal circuitry, it is generating a long continuous "cable" from the guitar to the amp, which might be affecting things.

What I did to avoid this was have a small loop station with 4 loops built. I have that on the front of my pedal board and all of my pedals are plugged into a separate loop. Then, I just switch them in or out of the chain. They are left on, but not in the signal chain until I click on the loop. That way, my actual signal chain is shorter when none of the pedal loops are on.

Again, I am sure there are folks on the board who have a much more thorough and specific answer than this. My main suggestion is to get your hands on the series of articles in the Guitar Player issue that had Pedal boards on the cover. If I can find it, I will post the issue date.
Good luck,
Brent

[Suriel Zayas]

+ 1,000,000,000,000


What I did to avoid this was have a small loop station with 4 loops built. I have that on the front of my pedal board and all of my pedals are plugged into a separate loop. Then, I just switch them in or out of the chain. They are left on, but not in the signal chain until I click on the loop. That way, my actual signal chain is shorter when none of the pedal loops are on.

[tom]

loop strips are a very good idea. they also make trouble shooting a whole lot easier. also it really helps to have a buffer at the end of the chain on the board. that way the length of the cable to the amp doesn't substantially change things. i just use my delay as the buffer. some like a separate buffer at the end and some like a buffer up front.

[Casper]

okay, I see where you guys are going, but the distance between my last output and the input of the amp is 10 feet. I wouldn't think that length is problematic? At least it hasn't been before? What is a buffer?
Another thought..could the gain on my wireless effect or clip the pedalboard?

I like the loop idea and may have to look into that, but I really feel like the preamp on my boogie (since it usually stays in the 1-2 range is limiting the signal from the pedals? With boogies, anything past 1-2 in pre gets hairy and limits my clean tone..(another thing Im struggling with right now). I just wanted to know if anyone else has experienced this? Am I wrong thinking?

[tom]

just so i'm clear, the issue is that the bypassed signal, all pedals off is varying from the pedal levels? are all pedals having to have their level higher? but you're totally happy with the bypassed signal?

[tom]

i didn't say that clearly. the most important question is the last one. if the answer is no, then maybe it's the level of the wireless.

[Casper]

Yes I am happy with the dry uneffected signal..I just feel like I am having to crank the level of the front 3 pedals to match dry signal? I check my wireless level every so often, play a loud chord and watch the meter. It barely pops into the red zone for a sec. My sound guy says Shure wants it that way (i kind of disagree), but I am generally happy with my dry sound..still trying to master the boogie eq system, but loving it all the same..

[tom]

can't think of a reason the signal should be any different to the pedals unless there's something along the path that's sucking signal strength. a good reason to have a loop strip, so you can isolate pedals. i'd try pulling out individual pedals one at a time and checking for level changes. i'd start with anything that's not true bypass. probably not a cable since the all off seems ok.

[Casper]

thanks for the advice everyone. I have a few minutes before the gig tonite, I will check it out and report back!

[Babow2]

FWIW, I have been playing Boogies exclusively for way to many years (since 1981) and currently play a Mark IV and a Heartbreaker. I also have a Line6 digital wireless. I don't have any problems with pedals into the boogie or with the wireless. However, your wireless gain/trim will affect your signal into the pedals, but if you like the dry tone, then it is something in the pedal chain. Tom is right, you have to break the chain down changing only one variable at a time. Pull one pedal out of the chain and try it, then another. Same with the cables between the pedals, until you are sure there isn't one bad link in the chain.

I am just guessing at things you might check. You haven't mentioned anything about how you are powering the pedals. Do you get the weak signal when any one pedal is on, and all others are off? Or is it when more than one, or some specific group of pedals are all on at the same time? Maybe it is your power source to the pedals, or a power source to one or two of the pedals? If you are using a multi power provider like a 1Spot or Brick or similar, maybe there is a bad power cable or something that is sucking power so that current drops too low in some situations?

[Janine Doubly]

I am curious as to names of the pedals you are using?

One issue that doesn't get addressed a lot is the input and output impedences of each pedal. One could be affecting the next in line when its engaged, thus affecting levels and a general "blahness" when bypassed. Its tricky business, cause some pedals will have different output impedences when engaged than when bypassed, and some pedals react differently to high and low impedences. I bet that your wireless has a low impedence output. I am wondering if the level mismatches you are experiencing is a product of impedence mismatches, thus producing gain issues.

[dannopelli]

Note that twice he indicated this is a recent situation. As if something went bad. Since his pedals are as he said, "mostly" bypass, they can operate in the off position unpowered.

So I think Babow2 is on to something. To me it seems like a pedal either is not getting good power or maybe the whole power supply went bad. Or maybe a dip switch on the power supply got knocked.