IEM users, I have a question

[coaltrain]

I have been using IEMs for about four years now and I still can't get used to them. I have not been able to get the sound from them that I have been used to hearing for the 22 years I have been gigging before them.

It seems like the sound is always thin and somewhat "in your face" sounding (very dry). I just switched to the Livewires about three months ago and they seem to have made the sound worse, they are clear and fit very nice but the sound is almost more dry and thin than what I had before them.

My question is, is that the kind of mix I have to learn to live with or should it sound better?

Jeff

[Suriel Zayas]

i believe that what you are describing is the sterile sound that can be produced from the use of iem's. good fitting iem's will give you very good isolation and separation from stage noise, house noise and the crowd, therefore, sounding almost lifeless, sterile. then you go into how the sound is getting to you, on stage mixer (aviom) or a direct mix from the monitor board. they both can work. with the individual stage mixer, it is what it is and you can create your own mix. with the direct mix from the monitor board, you are at the mercy of the monitor engineer. monitor boards, especially the newer digital ones can do anything, panning, muting, even programming certain instrumentation to stay muted until you need it. i kinnda went on a tangent.

however, one of the better solutions to combat the sterile sound is opening a room mic and feeding it back to your ears. it has proven in my case, to bring the audience, ambience and life back to the mix. many companies are offering tiny mics on the outside of your iem's that can be engaged or disengaged, and not only can you talk to someone on stage without pulling the iem (be careful removing iem's, they should not be pulled at once, but slowly) or introduce some ambience back into your ears. keep in mind as i said in the beginning, the better the fit, the more isolation, the more sterile the sound can be.

[wondermoose]

Which IEM's do you use Suriel? I'm headed to the audiologist tomorrow to get molds done for a set of Westone ES2's. They are definitely pricey, but I've only heard amazing things about them. The room mic idea is great. I definitely want to try that out in the coming weeks.

[ckofahl]

Wondermoose,

I have researched this and taken quite a journey regarding IEM's. First off, what I have discovered is that my thinking had to change. By that I mean that it became aparent that I would not be able to accomplish getting them to sound like standing next to my 212 cab, without spending upwards of 2k+ on a set.

Second, one of the leading tech's for one of the top companies that makes custom iem's said that for every foot that you stand away from source, the sound is delayed about 1ms. There is a bit of a delay that occours from the time that the signal is produced to the time it reaches our ears.

One solution is to add a delay line of your signal coming back to the iem's adjusted 1ms for every foot your cab is from you. This will address the "in your face" effect that iem's have. Remember that what you are hearing is either coming from a mic that is less that a few inches from your cab. You never play with your ear at this position however, your iem's are getting that kind of signal.

Another key was making sure that you pan (if your using a stereo mix) the instruments and spread them out in some sort of life like position. This keeps them from stacking on top of one another and the brain struggles to process a mix like this.

Be sure to start with "minimum" level of what you need of your guitar. Then adjust the others up to balance out with that minimum level. dbs can increase and with iem's sound levels can get dangerously high.

Adding an ambiant room mic with bring back some room feel to your mix and help with the "dead" feel.

Above anything else, I had to adjust my thinking and realize that there was no way I could get my iem's to sound like I'm standing next to my cab. But, I can get them to to sound good.

As a player that feeds of what I'm hearing, it took a while for that inspiration in my plying to come back. I'm using live wires and given the chance to go back to a 212 cab standing next to it, I'll choose the energy of my cab any day, but in the end, it's not about me, but it's about the sum of what we do, and therefore I can live with it. I have just recently switch to using an AXE FX Ultra and I'm getting the iem sound i've ever had. Sorry for the long post, but this is something I've been trying to work through for a while and continue to try and improve it.

[JohnnyBeck]

Hey bro. Room mics definately make a HUGE difference for me. Also, I can't remember the name of the company; but I remember seeing an IEM company that had earbuds that actually have a mic built into them so that you could mix in ambient sound from right near you into your mix. When I called about them, they were like 2 grand or something...so price was an issue for me.

Just thought I'd let you know about them in case it might be something that would help.

Later,
Johnny

[Suriel Zayas]

Which IEM's do you use Suriel?

i've used them all, but for the past two years i've been using live wires. they just sent me two sets of the triple drivers, but i found that they aren't all that necessary, just in my opinion. i feel fine with the dual-drivers.

[Suriel Zayas]

btw, live wires are now www.fidelitycustomearphones.com.

[wondermoose]

i've used them all, but for the past two years i've been using live wires. they just sent me two sets of the triple drivers, but i found that they aren't all that necessary, just in my opinion. i feel fine with the dual-drivers.


That's gonna make things difficult for me ha. I was deciding between the Westones and Livewires.

[JohnnyBeck]

i've used them all, but for the past two years i've been using live wires. they just sent me two sets of the triple drivers, but i found that they aren't all that necessary, just in my opinion. i feel fine with the dual-drivers.

Hey man. If you need someone to hold on to the triples for you for a while...I'd be glad to. :D

[wondermoose]

I just got back to the office from my "Doctor's Appointment." :) I picked a random audiologist from Westone's website and couldn't be happier with Total Hearing Care in Dallas. Here's me getting the impressions done.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs003.snc1/4147_939880749364_8304514_54172959_729643_n.jpg

[Ray K.]

I hope you will be pleased with your Westone "ears." I've been using their ES3 ears for more than a couple of years, and love them.

But, as in many cases, this is an item that is so very personal. Many folks prefer other brands/models.

How about reporting back once you get them and have a had some time to use them?

Thanks,
Ray K.

[Janine Doubly]

My guitar sound/In ear experience has been a journey as well. For a long time, I've actually struggled with my guitar tone when using wedges or the natural sound of my amp, because in my worship environment, I've had to keep the amp volume so low sometimes, the natural tone has kinda stunk. Thankfully, now I get to isolate my amp and open it up a bit, but I mic it and bring it into my wedge or in ear. The mic'd tone is highly dependant on the mic and its placement, the quality of the mixer channel strip, how its EQ'd, etc. Its more like dealing with getting a good tone in the studio, which has its plusses and minuses and different approaches.

Now, I am using this same approach using in ears, it just adds to the nuances that get covered up when just hearing your amp in a natural space. It took some getting used to, but I actually prefer it. I am hearing more subtleties than before, I am hearing how good (and sometimes bad) my amp and pedals can be, and I am definitely hearing my shortcomings and strengths as a player. The quality of the in ears makes a huge difference. To me, simpler in ear designs or phase coherent multi driver designs, seem to sound best on guitar, with less midrange weirdness going on. And I can't stress enough the quality and placement of the mic on your cab, as well as the quality of the speaker used in your amp. Again, its like being in the studio and will sound kinda naked. Thankfully, my rig works well in this type of environment. For a more forgiving /less detailed sound, the SM57 is the mic to try. But if you want to hear more nuance, the Sennheiser 609 is great, as well as Shure's KSM large diaphragm condenser mic (I forget which model).

I have had to re-think how I approach my rig since I went this way, but I am thankful for it, because I think that the nakedness of the mic'd in ear approach is allowing me to hear what was always coming out the mains in the first place.

But, I can understand that this approach is not for everyone, nor economically feasible for everyone.

[michaelomiya]

Ultimate Ears 7's and having a pair of 11's coming for home use. the tones from my 7's are excellent, and replicate my rig tone 'fairly' closely...that said how can little tiny drivers reproduce such killer sounds without compromising at some frequency...bottomline, I can hear the drummer and singer without making the tinnitus any worse.

[Suriel Zayas]

the tones from my 7's are excellent, and replicate my rig tone 'fairly' closely............bottomline, I can hear the drummer and singer without making the tinnitus any worse.

+1

and just as an ounce of prevention, many make the mistake of monitoring through only one ear, while the other exposed. what happens is that when you expose one ear to stage volume, the automatic tendency is try to compensate and match the stage volume with the in-ear volume. therefore, one tends to blast the volume in the in-ear, causing more harm than good.

[coaltrain]

I was using a SM57 now I am using the 609 off axis, amp is a Bad Cat Cub II 1x12. I think the tone is ok (I may add an eq before the transmitter so I have some tone adjustment) and your right about hearing everything you do (good and bad), but I think that Zayas had the trem I was looking for "Sterile", very lifeless. I am going to try and get a room mic added to my mix and see if that is the answer.

Thanks
Jeff