Question for Aviom users

[Lance Link]

hey guys, I need some help.
We started using Aviom 16 PM's at church last weekend, before that we had floor monitors which sounded good when the mix was right, my electric setup however, now sounds yucky through the IEM's. I am using a Carr Rambler mic'ed with an SM57. Clean tone is OK but distortion is not accurate. thanks for any suggestions, cheers!.

[Janine Doubly]

I have a few questions and a couple of suggestions. What overdrive/distortion do you use? Amp or pedal? What guitar are you using?
By innaccurate, what do you mean? Too bright? Too midrangy?
Suggestions -- be careful where you point the SM57. Try to keep it away from the dust cap and the edge of the cone of the speaker. I always try to point the 57 straight on right between the dust cap and edge. Some guys like to even point the 57 head at an angle, sort of like keeping the head of the mic parallel to the speaker cone. This, typically will warm things up a bit. Once you find a good spot, mark it with tape on the grille. I know its ugly, but it will make getting the "sweet spot" easier from week to week. Lastly, switching from hearing your amp through a wedge (or none at all) to IEM's can sound quite different and it will take some time to get used to. Also, some IEM's frankly just don't sound good on electric guitar. I know a lot of guys here will have some suggestions as to which IEM's sound best with guitar.

[csd]

It takes some time!
57 btwn the cap and cone, as said by Janine. The (Shure)E2's are what I've been using as IEM's. And at first I could not take a liking to them, because the TONES were diff! I eventually got used to them.
Give it a try.

[JohnnyBeck]

Hey bro. We use avioms and iem's too and most of our guitar players will play with only one plug in. If their amp is on their right...they use the left plug for monitoring and vise versa.

I actually prefer this for myself as I've found the blend between the direct bright signal and the amp's warm tone actually provideds my brain with a full fat sound.

Just a thought.

Johnny

[Lance Link]

By inaccurate I mean that it does not sound like what i hear from my amp. my gear is - Cobra Special - Strobo - OCD -GT500 - Choralflange - RC Booster -Echomachine - Maxon AD9 - Carr Rambler (clean)- Aviom16II -Shure E4.

sound / tone is fine in the house, amp and floor monitors. clean sounds flat and distortion sounds fizzy when using both IEM's. I did end up with amp on the left and earbud in the right to get through last Sunday. cheers!

[Suriel Zayas]

most of our guitar players will play with only one plug in.

johnny, i've been using iem's for over 12 years on tour. however, i would totally discourage anyone from doing the one-in/one-out monitoring, as it will only severly damage your hearing. when you have one ear exposed both ears are constantly trying to compensate and someone is about to get hurt. my .02 cents are, both-in or both-out.


tone is fine in the house

lance, from what source are they feeding the aviom? is it the direct channel out or an aux or sub? if your getting directly from the direct channel, aviom tends to be very true and clean, with little coloration and latency. typically a direct channel out will be very true to what's happening in the house, however, other routings can be adversely affected.

[ckofahl]

I have just gone from using a 2x12 cab with a mic, to using an Axe Trac iso cab. We have avioms and I tried the IEM, but found them to be a little to brittle for what Im use to hearing, I then tried a pair hi end closed headphones and it was a big improvement. I'm not sure if the size of the speaker in the headphone allowed more air to move or what it was, but after a few adjustments, I was happy with the tone I was getting. The Axe Trac iso cab is a small speaker enclosure with a 6" speaker and a mic that was designed and placed in an optimum spot. It can handle up to 100w and allows me to crank my 50w amp and the noise level from just the cab is about equal to a normal conversation. Yet the sound man has complete control over the sound and I get to crank my amp.

[brian b]

What IEM's are you using, different ones can make allot of difference. At my old church when they first put the Avioms in everyone used E2's most of the guitar players switched to ones that have triple drivers made a whole lot of difference.

Also Suriel is correct have read many articles and my ENT said that one in one out will cause damage.

[guitarzan]

johnny, i've been using iem's for over 12 years on tour. however, i would totally discourage anyone from doing the one-in/one-out monitoring, as it will only severly damage your hearing. when you have one ear exposed both ears are constantly trying to compensate and someone is about to get hurt. my .02 cents are, both-in or both-out.


We started using a condesner mic on stage just to pick up the ambient sound to mix back in the ears. This gives the impression that you're hearing something more than just the sum of each instrument close mic'd (guitar amps/ drums) or direct (bass/ keys). There's a little more 3-d space when you add in some ambient signal, which is what we try to do when we pull one ear out.

[Suriel Zayas]

We started using a condesner mic on stage just to pick up the ambient sound to mix back in the ears. This gives the impression that you're hearing something more than just the sum of each instrument close mic'd (guitar amps/ drums) or direct (bass/ keys). There's a little more 3-d space when you add in some ambient signal, which is what we try to do when we pull one ear out.

one of those tricks of the trade that makes life with iem's less sterile and more life like.

[Shannon]

We started using a condesner mic on stage just to pick up the ambient sound to mix back in the ears. This gives the impression that you're hearing something more than just the sum of each instrument close mic'd (guitar amps/ drums) or direct (bass/ keys). There's a little more 3-d space when you add in some ambient signal, which is what we try to do when we pull one ear out.

Man, I really wish I could do that... I'd also like to have a touch of some ambient mic's pointed at the congregation... just enough to hear them singing, but not enough to hear what NOTES any one person is singing, ya know/:eek:

I'm SO glad I read this because I had been doing one in/one out for a few weeks and I just couldn't get the sound I wanted with them both in, so I ditched IEM's all together, but I'm determined to make it work.
My church isn't on the AVIOM system yet, and I'm the only one on IEM's right now since I'm working on convincing the bean counters that the AVIOM is the way to go.... it's tough when they know nothing about music though:(

Thanks for the info guys... I'll NEVER go a whole set or service 50/50 with my "ears" again... either in or out.

[Ray K.]

Lot's of good information/suggestions already.

So, let me try to add from my experience with IEM's through an Aviom system.

I am in complete agreement with Suriel about never using just one ear bud - either both in or both out. Okay, I think you go that! :)

I'm also curious how your Aviom is hooked into FOH, and if there is any EQ applied. EQ is generally not needed, but it will be dependent on individual systems. The Aviom system is capable of reproducing accurately what is happening through the house system.

That's not to say what you hear in your ears will sound exactly the same as if you were in the house listening to the mix. It won't happen. Think about it, you've got the audio signal going into your ear canals and the IEM's also help to isolate ambient sounds by design. That way you are able to hear yourself better without being distracted.

If you're used to wedge monitors, you've been getting a different "mix" along with ambient sounds hitting your ears.

As someone mentioned, using IEM's is something of an acquired taste, so maybe give it some time to let your ears and mind get used to this new way of hearing yourself.

Also, the quality of the IEM's and a good seal are important. I see you are using Shure E4's. I've not had a chance to try these. You might want to talk to Shure and other's to see if these are for you. It is a personal thing, like finding a good pair of comfortable shoes.

You might want to move up to the E5's and get some custom ear molds for them.

I finally bought custom IEMS (Westone ES3) after using universal ear buds for awhile. They are triple driver monitors with a midrange bump for guitarist. I love them. Not only for their comfort, I could wear them all day with no problem. I also love the 25db of isolation. Our horn players, for example (great players, btw!) were bleeding into my ears when I was using universal ear buds.

You have to have confidence in your guy(s) at FOH when using IEM's. What you hear in your ears most likely will be a bit different than what's going on in the house. But, that's the same with wedge monitors too. The house mix will have EQ and outboard processing applied. You can't really compare the two in reality.

Lastly, since this has gotten longer than intended, ambient mics may help you out. Personally, I like the isolation. We have enough open mics to allow some ambient sounds to be picked up.

Okay, one last thing, the Aviom system is a beautiful thing, IMHO. You have the ability to dial in 16 channels to your taste. You're no longer dependent on FOH or Monitor World. I also use a wireless personal monitor system hooked into my Aviom A-16II that is stereo. Being able to pan channels helps to give the mix more dimension.

Give it some time. Personally, I hope I never have to go back to wedge monitors.

Good luck,
Ray K.

[Lance Link]

thanks for everyone's input.

connections for our house system are a mystery to me and not something i have the time, authority or know how to untangle. right now we have at best very inexperienced folks trying to help out with it. I think the next step will be to hire a consultant. one of the guys did open up the board to make some hardwire changes when they installed the Avioms and now we also have an annoying AC hiss.

I was just wondering if there was a missing component in my set up. i will try moving the mic around and see if that helps, thanks again! AJ

[Pietro]

Been using avioms here at my church for a little over a year.

2 things.

1. Listen to the aviom signal, NOT your amp, because this is what the audience/congregation is hearing. So tweak your sound to sound okay in your EARS, not your amp. This will help everybody. And watch your volume. Your hearing can't be fixed.

2. Please ignore this comment if it sounds insulting. I don't mean it to be. People in the audience/congregation don't need to hear the great sound of your rig, they need to hear the great sound of the whole band. Too many guitarists complain that their "tone" isn't coming through the PA. It's not supposed to. For instance, many guitarists I've played with have way too much low end in their sound. It steps on the bass. It's like the keyboard player who plays too heavy on the left hand or the bass player who plays notes too high.

[mullenski]

Through the Aviom into E4s, my guitar tone seems to be harsh, tinny, bad. Not what's coming out of the amp (mic'd sm-57) or GT-8, if going direct.

Hooked up a wireless and walked into the congregation seating area at rehearsal to really hear what's coming through FOH. Indeed, much closer to the amp's output.

So, good news -- FOH tone is fine. Avioms/IEMs pretty stinky...

[Ray K.]

People in the audience/congregation don't need to hear the great sound of your rig, they need to hear the great sound of the whole band. Too many guitarists complain that their "tone" isn't coming through the PA. It's not supposed to. For instance, many guitarists I've played with have way too much low end in their sound. It steps on the bass. It's like the keyboard player who plays too heavy on the left hand or the bass player who plays notes too high.
Well, I believe this deserves an amen, brother Pietro! :)

Ray K.

[Lance Link]

Thanks Stan, that's encouraging! and not the least insulting. I'm just a willing hack,, a little distracted by how I "sit in the mix" with these IEM's, that's all, no big ego thing. l have a habit of trying to work around the need for patience, cheers!

[coaltrain]

I had the same problem with my tone when our church switched to IEMs. I went and bought my own Sennheiser E609 silver and it was better. Then I went to Target and bought some Bose in-ear headphones and things really got good. The headphones were expensive but it made a huge difference in my playing enjoyment. IMO it seems like a lot of the IEM headphones seemed to be better for voice only and they don't do a good job with all the other sounds from the band.

[Suriel Zayas]

fyi.......since we're on the topic here's some neat info. for those of you looking for custom-molded dual-drivers (which is plenty) at a very competitive price, check these guys out. www.livewiresforyou.com.














dislcaimer: i have nothing to gain from this.:D

[Shannon]

fyi.......since we're on the topic here's some neat info. for those of you looking for custom-molded dual-drivers (which is plenty) at a very competitive price, check these guys out. www.livewiresforyou.com.











dislcaimer: i have nothing to gain from this.:D

Why are these better than some of the other options out there such as the Westone UM2's and the Ultimate ears, etc?

Just curious. I have a set of UM2's and I cannot imagine ANY $250 pair of IEM's being much better sonic-ly ... Obviously molded IEM's are going to feel better, but that is also a relatively low cost option for the UM2's as well.

Any comparison in terms of sound?

[marsodude]

fyi.......since we're on the topic here's some neat info. for those of you looking for custom-molded dual-drivers (which is plenty) at a very competitive price, check these guys out. www.livewiresforyou.com.














dislcaimer: i have nothing to gain from this.:D


Suriel laid this tip on us several weeks ago. I bought a set on his recommendation...I can say this, they sure are comfortable. I like 'em!

[Pietro]

Marso,

How do they sound? And how is it going out there in the far east? PM or email me, tell me what's up!

[Suriel Zayas]

Why are these better than some of the other options out there such as the Westone UM2's and the Ultimate ears, etc?

shannon, never did i present them as a better option than the brands you mentioned, however, i did present them as a more competively priced (cheaper) option. in conversations i've had with livewires, they mentioned that they purchase components from the same suppliers westone & ue purchase from. however, they don't subject themselves to the supply and demand standards that drive market prices. i've used westones, ue's & livewires and for the price the livewires are similar in comfort, isolation, and sound quality as their competitors.

disclaimer: once again, absolutely nothing to gain from this.:D :D

[Shannon]

shannon, never did i present them as a better option than the brands you mentioned, however, i did present them as a more competively priced (cheaper) option. in conversations i've had with livewires, they mentioned that they purchase components from the same suppliers westone & ue purchase from. however, they don't subject themselves to the supply and demand standards that drive market prices. i've used westones, ue's & livewires and for the price the livewires are similar in comfort, isolation, and sound quality as their competitors.

disclaimer: once again, absolutely nothing to gain from this.:D :D

So, in other words... they're not better, just cheaper.

I got it...

I paid $175 for my UM2's, so I guess I'm better off than having bought the live wires.

I asked because there seems to be a buzz around these IEM's right now and I was wondering if it were STRICTLY a price point thing versus them actually being BETTER IEM's for less money..

From your answer, It appears that it's the prior rather than the latter... and there's nothing wrong with that... I just wanted to know.

[Suriel Zayas]

From your answer, It appears that it's the prior rather than the latter... and there's nothing wrong with that... I just wanted to know.

my answer is based on my experience with their (westone & ue) pricier models. such as, the ue 7 pros, and westone models costing 3 times what livewires cost. imho, when you compare livewires to westone's um series, there is no comparisson. not that if you spend the extra $75 on the livewires, compared to the um series you are better off, in my opinion they are not comparable.

[Shannon]

my answer is based on my experience with their (westone & ue) pricier models. such as, the ue 7 pros, and westone models costing 3 times what livewires cost. imho, when you compare livewires to westone's um series, there is no comparison. not that if you spend the extra $75 on the livewires, compared to the um series you are better off, in my opinion they are not comparable.

THe UM's that I use are $349(I just happened to have gotten a deal on my UM2's), so you're saying that they're BETTER than plugs costing $100 MORE?

(So for someone to say these are "better" I just have to know why...)

That's what I'm trying to get at...

Compare apples to apples and then tell me which you think are better and why exactly.

I guess I'm the kind of guy who needs some "data" to substantiate someone saying "they're better."

The bottom line is that SOUND in general is going to be completely subjective, but there are some basic measurements that can be used to compare the two.

I mean we're talking about two sets of dual driver IEM's... that you have already said are likely to be made of the same parts, so how different can they really be?

The only reason the Comparison IEM's from Westone were 3x the price was due to the "custom" factor which can now be reasonably added to the UM's at a relatively affordable price. (ES2's = Custom fit UM2's)

I might just need to try these livewires for myself to find out what all the Hype is about and hope I'm not disappointed... of course, if I am, I can just return them for a full refund according to their website.

Win-Win.