average to exceptional

[Road King]

I've been looking through a few other forums and have read some interesting "opinion" threads. I thought I would throw this out there to the TAG faithful. Because of the varied background and types of players around here this could be very interesting.

Question: What is the difference between an very good but still average and an exceptional guitar player? Where does he or she cross the line?

Have fun,

Brad

[mbrown3]

Good question! Should get some interesting discussion started.

For me, there is a difference between technically great and musically great. Technically amazing players are a dime a dozen. But what makes a musically great player for me is an ability to play to the song. Certain players, like Vai, Satriani, etc, are great technically (and I don't think anyone will argue with that). But their songs exist to serve their playing. Musically great players get their playing to serve the song. Most players aren't great at either one.

Phil Keaggy said (something along the lines of) "there are a lot of great players who have nothing to say with their playing. There are others who may not be as technically adept or talented, but they have a lot to say. I'd rather listen to the latter." I'm with him.

[Janine Doubly]

Although it can be HIGHLY subjective, I think where a player crosses the line from average to exceptional is the ability to allow themselves to just flow through their playing. Personality and a unique voice are the hallmarks of an exceptional player. Technique can certainly vary; George Harrison was never as gifted technically as some and his ability to just throw out great solos on a whim was not his strong suit, but man, you know its him when you hear him. And given the time to construct a solo or a part, he was almost without peer. Vai, Satriani, Malmsteen and SRV are certainly gifted technically, but their personality is the key to their greatness. So its not just technical ability, lack of or an abundance of. I get just as excited listening to Holdsworth as I do listening to John Lee Hooker. Why? Personality baby!!!

[Pietro]

Uniqueness is it, for me.

I'd rather hear the Edge play one note than hear (__fill__in__your__favorite__shredder's__name) play 1000.

When you have a voice that serves your music, whatever your instrument, then I think you are achieving greatness.

Incidentally, some who are technically way beyond the stratosphere still fit into that category. I love Vai, I love Satriani... but I especially love the ones who's playing contributes to the music, not vice versa. Example, the solo at the end of the song "Torn" (by natalie imbriglia). only a few notes... none wasted, though... and it serves the song. I bet a shredder who's also a great guitarist might have played the same notes, given the opportunity!

[SonicGator]

To me, the biggest challenge is making wonderful sounding music that people can listen/dance/find the groove to that is also highly technical. I agree that many people tend to be one or the other. It doesn't get much better than Danny Gatton though. His playing fit the song, but also was crazy insane technically challenging. Brad Paisley is a modern artist I like listening to as well. He lets it rip, but also plays music that people can listen to.

I saw a quote once that said something along the lines of, "the faster you play, the fewer women will be at your show." John Mayer is a good example to. He writes songs like "Your Body is a Wonderland" to get the ladies to his shows, then has enough jamming to keep the guys interested during the show.

[Casper]

I think what we're talking about is finding the player who delves in to both technical and "soul" playing...
For me, Steve Lukather is the one. He can shred and get nuts like anyone, but has written some of the most stirring (imo) guitar solos I have ever heard.
(imo)Technical players are fun to watch...for a little while. But to me, note placement, where to put licks, space, is what I strive for. Unfortunately for me, I am in a musical situation that doesn't promote this growth. Music is income for me and though I am glad to have a gig that pays the bills, I wish I were able to grow more. I just have to take the same songs night after night and try to create something interesting with the few solos I get in show.
I compare myself to my late father. He loved golf, played every chance he got, spend tons on the best clubs, etc...always looking for the perfect game, was good enough to hang with players young and old and even win a tourney or two. I am happy to be "on the course" enough to make a living and look for the perfect 'game'..
Shaun

[SonicGator]

Larry Carlton has a great approach to soloing as well. He says that if you just start ripping into a solo, it's too much for the listen to connect with. Watch it here...

MR.335 (http://www.mr335.com/)

go to Mr. 335TCV > Soloing > Soloing

[mr. j]

I think what we're talking about is finding the player who delves in to both technical and "soul" playing...
For me, Steve Lukather is the one. He can shred and get nuts like anyone, but has written some of the most stirring (imo) guitar solos I have ever heard.
(imo)

+1
People need to check out the Toto Live in Amsterdam DVD. It's still in heavy rotation in all of my concert DVD's... and I've had it 2 or 3 years now.

[Rupe]

I think its a combination of touch, tone, phrasing, and vibrato. Technique is great, but not necessary. Originality can be another factor. I really don't care to hear somebody "master" someone else's work.

It doesn't take good technique to play BB King, but just try to cop his feel...it ain't happening for most people, even very proficient players.

I've been trying to get my 16 year old son to understand this exact thing, but he is caught in the "technique is everything" mode ("Michael Angelo Batio is the greatest guitarist on Earth" :) ). I hope he grows out of it soon!

[Road King]

great answers!!! A consensus of mature views of music, and pretty well all on the same page. I must say that I agree with all of you. I can remember as a young teenager just starting to play and begging my teacher to show me songs by KISS and Ted Nugent (anything to impress some girls). He turned me on to Al DiMeola's Elegant Gypsy album. That changed my whole outlook on guitar playing. It was the first time I recognized something beyond the norm. Of course I became a total technique guy for a few years, and I must say I am a better player because of the time I spent working on picking and scales. But the real revelation for me was when I heard Jeff Beck play "Because we've ended as Lovers" and it made me feel sad. No lyrics. Just a song title and the most perfect arrangment of notes. I still listen to Elegant Gypsy on occasion but since Beck I have always searched out the unique and moving type of players to listen to, regardless of style.

Heres to the unique and exceptional moments in all of our playing. Would love to hear clips of all of you guys if it's possible.

Brad

[mbrown3]

I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember Carlos Santana saying something like, "You can play all the fancy stuff in the world, and there will be a bunch of guys standing around with their jaws on the floor, but there won't be a woman in sight." He was talking about the importance of lyricism in guitar playing, of playing beautiful passages that strike at the heart and at emotion, rather than just playing lots of stuff that sounds fast and technically amazing.

I listen to Eric Johnson's Manhattan during G3 from 1997 and despite all of the "technical" playing, he has a few phrases in this song that moved me deeply, especially one at 1:15 of the track (1:05 of the original on Venus Isle), that I listened to over and over when I first heard it. So expressive.

[enr1co]

But what makes a musically great player for me is an ability to play to the song. Certain players, like Vai, Satriani, etc, are great technically (and I don't think anyone will argue with that). But their songs exist to serve their playing. Musically great players get their playing to serve the song. Most players aren't great at either one.

Phil Keaggy said (something along the lines of) "there are a lot of great players who have nothing to say with their playing. There are others who may not be as technically adept or talented, but they have a lot to say. I'd rather listen to the latter." I'm with him.

For me, Tommy Emmanuel is the guitarist who immediately comes to mind with both technical and musical greatness. He breathes life into every song and makes technical stuff look so effortless.

Seeing one "live" or in performance is also a big factor in ones opinion of this. You may listen to a CD track and only think it is so-so but seeing the person performing it live or by video, one gains a different perspective/appreciation. One of the reasons I love buying/renting concert DVD's and surfing You Tube for clips. I guess I need to get that Toto DVD :)

[SonicGator]

OK, so here's a question for each of you..

As I've progressed in my playing and learned more theory, I've gone from listening to Eddie Van Halen, George Lynch, Vai, Brad Paisley etc. most of the time to seeking out Brett Garsed, Danny Gatton, Tuck Andress, Larry Carlton, and Robben Ford. I guess as I progress, I'm looking for those that can inspire me even further to make great music beyond the I-IV-V. That's not to say I don't enjoy great playing and I still listen to those listed on occasion, but I'm seeking great playing that is enjoyable to more listeners than just guitar geeks.

Overall, I would rather write great music that people enjoy than be considered a guitar hero.

Anyone else experienced a change in musical tastes as your knowledge/ability went up?

[mbrown3]

Anyone else experienced a change in musical tastes as your knowledge/ability went up?

Definitely. I liked Jazz before college, but once I got there, it was all about "real music" (jazz). Recently I've been listening to more piano and horn players, to get their lyrical "flow" of phrasing, etc. Very cool stuff.

[Road King]

Absolutely, great changes. At first it was DiMeola or anything else fusion. If it wasn't fusion jazz it was crrraaap. The band I was touring with at the time was also all about doing it perfect. Then I left that band and joined a bunch of slobs from Detroit. (no offence to anyone from Michigan, but these guys were really slobs) At first I hated doing the music off thier list. Tons of AC/DC and Billboard stuff. But after a while I began to get an appreciation of 3 chord R&R and it's place in the big picture. 20 something years later it's become all about the song instead of just about the individual parts. I still love the Dregs, DiMeola, just about any Zawanul composition, but I have of late been able to just appreciate music. Even country :eek: . Now it kind of cracks me up to listen to guys extol the god like virtues of the newest shred master while looking down on simpler music. Man, I even think Amazing Grace rocks now. What great lyrics over those changes.
Is there some way for people on the forum to download clips of something they've played they may be particularly proud of, or that maybe they would just like some objective input on the part? I think that would be really cool the listen to forum guys jam.

God Bless
Brad

[dannopelli]

For me:

There are just certain cats that as soon as you hear a note or two you know its them. Some of them might not be "famous", just local players. But you know. You know?

That is what I aspire to. To sound like me.

[MapleGuitar]

For me, Tommy Emmanuel is the guitarist who immediately comes to mind with both technical and musical greatness...Absolutely! I've seen TE 6 times, so far. And each time I come home and ponder making firewood of my Andersons and Suhrs and Breedloves, etc. But, then I go out to the studio and practice instead :o
I urge any guitar player to check out Tommy Emmanuel live some day.

[pipedwho]

Absolutely! I've seen TE 6 times, so far. And each time I come home and ponder making firewood of my Andersons and Suhrs and Breedloves, etc. But, then I go out to the studio and practice instead :o
I urge any guitar player to check out Tommy Emmanuel live some day.
+1 on Tommy!
-1 on the burning of guitars. :)