"Over" intonizing?

[AndyK]

There must be a technical term for my question? I've noticed on several of my guitars, that when I am adjusting the intonation, I have to move the bridge saddle way back, to get the open and 12th fret to sound the same. This is mostly on the G string (usually).

I find that a lot of times, the string will sound fine by itself, meaning the digital tuner is showing a match between the open and 12th fret. But the string will be way out with the string above or below it (when doing a double stop type lick, or suspended barre chord).

To solve this problem, I usually wind up moving the saddle in a major way TOWARDS the nut. This gives me a similar match between the open and 12th fret, but is more in-line with the rest of the strings.

I know I'm not making sense, but does this sound right to anyone? Can I be moving the saddle pieces TOO far back, bringing the saddle into the wrong octave of adjustment (if that exists)??

Dan Erlwine's repair guide says Fender builders set the intonation patern by measuring the scale length (25.5) from the nut to the E string saddle, then staggering the rest of the saddles accordingly - to get the basic setting. Does this work for all guitars?

Do I have too much time on my hands?

Thanks!

[tom]

if you're talking about guitars without buzz feiten, they are never really in tune. over the years people have tried to do some kind of compensation to try to make it better. buzz came up with the best system i've tried. have qualified person buzz it. it does sound like you may be getting into something without quite enough info.

[mbrown3]

Yeah, if it's not "buzzed," then it will always be out. If it is buzzed and it's still doing that, I would have someone (qualified re: BFTS) look at it, since it sounds like something's way off.

[AndyK]

It's an un-buzzed '85 Jackson w/ Floyd. I've been setting up my guitars myself for over 20 years, so it's not like I'm a kid experimenting on his first electric! I know most guitars are not perfectly in tune, etc. But most guitars should be able to do a Chuck Berry type lick in the 7th fret without making me cringe!
Like I said, my Jackson was doing just that, until I moved the G string saddle forward 1/4 inch, which must have meant the string was an octave off?

Can a string be intonated at two different saddle points? Can a string seem to be intonated, but actually be way off due to the saddle point being wrong?

I'm not insane....right? :eek:

[Pietro]

Andy,

You're not crazy. (You are an Anderson-owner after all... how much more not crazy can you be!)

I've learned that some brands of strings don't intonate right on some of my guitars. (but the same brand of string works great on another... go figure...)

Can that be part of it? Or is it that I'M crazy?

:p

Also, I LOVE Elixers, but many of the sets I've used in the past year have been troublesome... They didn't tune right, and they broke very easily. I'm hoping my dealer got a bad batch or something...

[tom]

different brands can intonate very differently. some brands can also vary greatly(bad strings). floyds can also be very different depending on where they sit in relation to level with the body. the string ramp is so shallow that a slightly different position ran affect intonation point.

[AndyK]

Andy,

You're not crazy. (You are an Anderson-owner after all... how much more not crazy can you be!)
Also, I LOVE Elixers, but many of the sets I've used in the past year have been troublesome... They didn't tune right, and they broke very easily. I'm hoping my dealer got a bad batch or something...

My B string broke within the first 10 minutes of me playing! I put a full set of D'Adario's on - no breaks so far. So I agree with your assessment!!

Maybe the better follow up question would be: How do the techs at Anderson intonate a Floyd equipped guitar? Do they start with the standard Floyd pattern, then use the DT-7 matching notes at the 12th fret? How hard do they press the string at the 12th? I find when I grab a chord, I am pressing harder than when delicately intonating a guitar...etc, etc?

:confused:

[tom]

we set the saddles where we normally see them when we are done, then fine tune with the tuner. floyds are less predictable visually than our traditional bridges. you should intonate with the same kind of finger pressure you will be playing with. keep in mind that if you are a hard grabber, you're never going to be as in tune. pushing hard at the 12th fret,because of the narrow space, will give less deflection than pushing hard at the 3rd fret. fret height is of course also a factor.

[AndyK]

keep in mind that if you are a hard grabber, you're never going to be as in tune. pushing hard at the 12th fret,because of the narrow space, will give less deflection than pushing hard at the 3rd fret. fret height is of course also a factor.

Interesting! That's why I could be "in tune" when pushing the 12th fret, but sharp when I play the notes in a D barre chord at the 5/7th fret (according to the tuner)?

I guess it's all a compromise, even with Buzz (85% in tune)?

[tom]

tuning is always a compromise. don't know that i could put a number on it, but for me only a feitened guitar is close enough.

[mbrown3]

The stainless frets help too, otherwise you get minute wear in the fret that can move pitch up to a couple of cents. All else being equal, the Feiten system still isn't perfect, no, but the closest thing we've got, IMO.

[dannopelli]

When you ar intonating are you holding the guitar as you normally do or on a flat surface? Makes a huge difference.

[AndyK]

When you ar intonating are you holding the guitar as you normally do or on a flat surface? Makes a huge difference.

Playing position, of course!

[AndyK]

When using the DT-7, should I be using the Feiten settings when I check the 12th fret vs. the open strings? I raised the action, and straightened the neck on my new Drop Top, but that threw the intonation off slightly.
I am having a terrible time getting the B and G strings to play in-tune when doing suspended barre chords (intro to Unchained, for example). Although the 12th fret seems to be OK as far as the DT-7 goes, to get a good tuned chord, I have to tune the G string flat, or the B string sharp - or else I get that out-of-tune beating sound.

What am I doing wrong?

[tom]

you sould always use the feiten settings. you have to go back and forth with the octave button when tuning open and 12th fret.

[AndyK]

you sould always use the feiten settings. you have to go back and forth with the octave button when tuning open and 12th fret.

Didn't know there was an octive button!? Maybe that's why I'm off?

[tom]

if you weren't using it, you were doing even temperament. in other words, you undid half the feiten system.

[AndyK]

if you weren't using it, you were doing even temperament. in other words, you undid half the feiten system.

I was using the Feiten setting, but wasn't using the octive button - would that undo the Feiten system, or did you mean if I wasn't using the Feiten setting at all? :eek: