Dealer Price Gouging

[michaelomiya]

OK, I just got off the phone with 4 "official" Anderson dealers, none of which are in TX or in PA;) :D

These folks have incredibly beautiful Atom's available and I was cyber "window shopping" this fine morning (while the rest of the family's out fighting for "bargains"). Prior to inquiring, I pulled all of the spec info and noted the pricing from the TAG serial number search.

(SHOCKER....not!) WITHOUT exception, each of these guys wanted FULL retail + the $189 for the case. Wow. And to make it worse, one of these guys tried quoting me a 2006 list price for a 2005 Atom. :eek: :mad:

So, fellow Forumites, "CAVEAT EMPTOR" is the key here. And, IMHO, it seems like those dealers who have not historically moved large inventory or volume of TAG's are the very ones trying to gouge the public. (shock, I know). And while I completely acknowledge that lack of "supply" and increased "demand" naturally drive up prices, even 2-3 weeks post-announcement, I'm amazed at the brazen, overt greed demonstrated by these dealers.

Going forward, their "day" of reckoning will come. And it ain't armaggedon. It's called, "Tom's new dealer listing".:p

[Dave K]

I experienced the same thing, but only two days after the announcement.:mad:

I think Tom will have a very difficult decision to make with regards to his new business model. I know what my price limit is for a new TAG guitar, and I know what dealers I will never purchase from again.
If the two don't meet, I'm afraid I won't be buying another TAG.:confused:

[michaelomiya]

I know what my price limit is for a new TAG guitar, and I know what dealers I will never purchase from again.

Dave, I couldn't have put it any better!!

[-CM-]

Who is the dealer? Please PM me if you don't want to say publicly, although I think they need to be exposed to everyone.

[taclassic]

Mike,

I had a similar experience a few days after the news from Tom. I inquired about a Drop Top, but it was already sold. I was then told they were receiving another one and was quoted a price that actually seemed above list.

[michaelomiya]

Who is the dealer? Please PM me if you don't want to say publicly, although I think they need to be exposed to everyone.

please check your PM box!;)

[-CM-]

please check your PM box!;)

Got it, thanks for the info.

Also, I just realized that this forum is not the place to post the names of the gouging dealers, so disregard my previous assertion. Since Magdon Music sponsors this site, I think it would be very bad form to say negative things about other dealers (even if they're true).

[Casper]

Before I pulled the trigger on my new Atom last week, I called a few dealers around the country. I don't know if gouging is the right word, but let me say that I saved hundreds at my shop from what was quoted to me for guitars that weren't as nice as mine/, plus, it was one of the last pieces he had. I also heard that some dealers are considering "putting a few in the closet" until after March.
Shaun

[michaelomiya]

I also heard that some dealers are considering "putting a few in the closet" until after March.
Shaun

y'know, that's the bummer of it all. Are they afraid that the post-March 2007 stuff's going to be inferior to the TAG's being made now? Are they "hedging" their inventory in the event that the TAG supply bottoms out to nothing?

I'll also bet that the folks perpetuating this (hording and gouging) are the same ones that will not be included as a dealer going forward. Why? Because good folks like us will not patronize them. To the best of my knowledge, all the "good guys" have everything listed and for sale.:)

[Guitarded]

I wonder what Tom is anticipating will happen when he scales down to a one man operation? Yes, he will be doing what he loves full time, I imagine, and building like a fiend most of the time. But will he be dealing directly with customers?... or still working through dealers?... or both? Wouldn't he get to call the shots from scratch?
I still have another dream that I am hoping Tom can build for me some day, but I am going to have to wait for now. Yes, I did get my lady her sewing maching for Christmas this year... and that is more than the (old) price of my next TAG.:D :D

[michaelomiya]

Yes, I did get my lady her sewing maching for Christmas this year... and that is more than the (old) price of my next TAG.:D :D

yeah, my mom spent like $5-6k on some kind of programmable European machine:eek: :eek:

...I told the wife..."see, it runs in the genes!":D ;)

[Guitarded]

ahh... but does she do some incredible quilts! I wish I could write and play that well... money in the bernina is so well spent, just like investing in a tag... nothing else plays so well...:)
thread got kinda sidetracked but when it comes to what I put out for my wife's passion and for mine (read - 6 sting wood boxes) I haven't been gouged... I have been blessed!

[Toneseeker]

Just bought a Hollow T Classic Desert Sunset at full list retail, instead of at the more normal 25-30% discount usually experienced here in Houston. Outstanding guitar, but I'll never go back to that local retailer for a major purchase ever again.

[michaelomiya]

Just bought a Hollow T Classic Desert Sunset at full list retail........Outstanding guitar, but I'll never go back to that local retailer for a major purchase ever again.


:eek: THAT's the abusive treatment I'm talking about. :mad: :mad:
Dude, that's awful, but at least you've got a smoking hollow T.....which sounds like was "worth" the price(?):cool:

[Rupe]

Supply and demand drive the market. If these stores feel that they can make a premium on TAG's at the moment, more power to them. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy one. Obviously, just from what I've read here, some people are paying the premium.
Price gouging is typically associated with necessities (electricity, water, gas, etc...), not luxeries. No one is being "gouged" because no one "needs" a new TAG. If you don't like the amount being asked for a particular piece, walk away. Tom's decision means the "price to play" has now most likely gone up, at least for the time being. Pay what you are willing to pay but don't whine about a business trying to capitalize on an opportunity to add to the bottom line...it's why they exist.

[Rupe]

:eek: THAT's the abusive treatment I'm talking about. :mad: :mad:
Dude, that's awful, but at least you've got a smoking hollow T.....which sounds like was "worth" the price(?):cool:

Abusive treatment??? Did someone force him to buy the guitar? Get real!

[mbrown3]

Supply and demand drive the market. If these stores feel that they can make a premium on TAG's at the moment, more power to them. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy one. Obviously, just from what I've read here, some people are paying the premium.
Price gouging is typically associated with necessities (electricity, water, gas, etc...), not luxeries. No one is being "gouged" because no one "needs" a new TAG. If you don't like the amount being asked for a particular piece, walk away. Tom's decision means the "price to play" has now most likely gone up, at least for the time being. Pay what you are willing to pay but don't whine about a business trying to capitalize on an opportunity to add to the bottom line...it's why they exist.

Spoken like a greedy dealer...

[guitarzan]

On a positive note, Rockit Music here in SoCal has a handful of Andys on the wall. I just talked to the owner, Ian, yesterday and he's honoring his usual sales price. rockitmusic.com (http://www.rockitmusic.com)

Their site has pics and contact info, if anyone's interested.

[michaelomiya]

Spoken like a greedy dealer...

:p :D no kidding!

[michaelomiya]

On a positive note, Rockit Music here in SoCal has a handful of Andys on the wall. I just talked to the owner, Ian, yesterday and he's honoring his usual sales price. rockitmusic.com (http://www.rockitmusic.com)

Their site has pics and contact info, if anyone's interested.

+1! Ian's a great guy and really easy to deal with, and without all of that arrogant attitude that I've been experiencing lately!

[michaelomiya]

Abusive treatment??? Did someone force him to buy the guitar? Get real!

Rupe, that could be something right out of USASDC's mouth.:rolleyes:

[Stys]

I walked in to one of the better music stores yesterday and the owner asked me right off the bat if he could buy some of my Anderson's. This store is not an Anderson dealer. I asked him why he is suddenly interested in my guitars when he has declined being an Anderson dealer in the past. He honestly told me that he can get premium $$ for the guitars. In other words, he wants to make money for his pocket after hearing Anderson's change. Naturally, I declined but walked out thinking this guys has some nerve.

[Dave K]

Abusive treatment??? Did someone force him to buy the guitar? Get real!

If small stores don't take care of their return customer base, GC will continue to put them out of business. Being short-sighted to make a little extra $$ one month may mean the loss of loyal customers- forever. IMHO.

[mbrown3]

If small stores don't take care of their return customer base, GC will continue to put them out of business. Being short-sighted to make a little extra $$ one month may mean the loss of loyal customers- forever. IMHO.

100% right.

[olectric]

If small stores don't take care of their return customer base, GC will continue to put them out of business. Being short-sighted to make a little extra $$ one month may mean the loss of loyal customers- forever. IMHO.

Exactly. I would think that the extra few to several hundred dollars for a few guitars wouldn't be worth the loss of customer base and reputation.

[tmihm]

I called a place last week (PM me if you want to know...) and the sales guy said 'List Price on all of the Andersons'. I thought it was taking advantage of the customers....I'm sorry. Tom and Co. won't see another penny no matter how much they charge, and I think it's just greed. I am not a business-man, though..... :D

I like buying guitars. I won't look there again for one. First impression, you know? - and the guy made it sound like Tom was kicking the prices up. I did call another place that was doing a discount still...but they only had two in stock, neither of which I was interested in.

Terry

[mbrown3]

ABSOLUTELY they have the right to charge whatever they want, even if it's 15,000 for a Playstation 3. There's NOTHING illegal, or, imho, even unethical about this. However... the dealer who gave me the great price and great service BOTH... became my FRIEND, not just my supplier...

I won't disagree with the it being their right, legally, to charge whatever they want, but I will challenge it ethically. Shouldn't the extra money they charge go to the manufacturer of the goods, IF they are going to charge more than what they have before? But it's not. What bothers me is the fact that many of these stores typically give a discount from list and then all of a sudden decide not to. I will not shop at a store with shifting policies. I want a store that is going to say one thing and then stick to it. That's customer loyalty. They'll make a lot more money from me in the long run if they don't try to squeeze a few hundred more out of a single guitar. Call it what you will, but price gouging is a perfect example of unethical practices and pure greed.

[michaelomiya]

I won't disagree with the it being their right, legally, to charge whatever they want, but I will challenge it ethically. Shouldn't the extra money they charge go to the manufacturer of the goods, IF they are going to charge more than what they have before? But it's not. What bothers me is the fact that many of these stores typically give a discount from list and then all of a sudden decide not to. I will not shop at a store with shifting policies. I want a store that is going to say one thing and then stick to it. That's customer loyalty. They'll make a lot more money from me in the long run if they don't try to squeeze a few hundred more out of a single guitar. Call it what you will, but price gouging is a perfect example of unethical practices and pure greed.

100% agree, and FWIW, I am a business person!:D

[Rupe]

What bothers me is the fact that many of these stores typically give a discount from list and then all of a sudden decide not to. I will not shop at a store with shifting policies.

They did not "all of a sudden decide not to" give discounts...a change in the marketplace drove their actions. I would bet that they will still offer their typical discounts on their other items.
It seems as if some of you are living in fantasyland. A store is there to earn money, period. If it stops doing that, it will no longer exist. The customer relationships, service, etc are all secondary.
If I were a dealer, why would I continue to sell something at a certain price when I know that a change in the market has create a situation where I could earn a greater return? Should I continue my typical discount, sell out, and then watch the pieces that I just sold commend a premium on ebay? I would probably contnue my discount for a select few loyal customers, but not to the masses. I know that repeat business and relatonships are important, but that type of customer is a rarity these days. I'll bet none of the stores that have raised their prices (lowered their discounts) will see a significant decline in business because of it.

Whoever made the "spoken like a greedy dealer" comment, you clearly have little understanding of market dynamics. When/if you sell your Andersons (if you have any), will you ask market value or will you sell them for substantially less than they are worth so as to make "buddies"?

I understand the position that many are taking here, but it is one of wishful thinking with little basis in reality. I too wish that I could run out and buy Andersons the same way that I could a month ago. Times have quickly changed and I understand that I no longer can. I won't blame the dealers...it's simply a natural market correction.


Rupe, that could be something right out of USASDC's mouth.

That was low :D

[Casper]

Rupe, I agree with much of what you said. I can understand people like me and Michael "cybershopping" and the dealer doesn't know us. You are also correct that many are looking to "playstation/ebay" the guitars for investment purposes. Fortunately, my recent purchase reflects my long relationship with my dealer. Good customer service will help anytime and Andy players are of course a different breed:p The people who are jacking or not discounting are probably treating long term longtime customers better than the average paniced andy shopper.
Another view, many dealers are probably panicing and selling them straight out to get a new line like Suhr or PRS to replace Anderson.
Shaun

[michaelomiya]

That was low :D

:p sorry, bud, I couldn't help it!
(For everyone else, both Rupe and I are on a Charvel forum, and there's an individual who likes to "stir it up", usually on purpose, and goes by the name USASDC (USA San Dimas Charvel). I'm sure we all know a few of those folks!:p)

[mbrown3]

Whoever made the "spoken like a greedy dealer" comment, you clearly have little understanding of market dynamics. When/if you sell your Andersons (if you have any), will you ask market value or will you sell them for substantially less than they are worth so as to make "buddies"?


I wouldn't sell them for less in order to make buddies, but if I already had buddies (i.e., loyal customers), then I wouldn't gouge them on the price. It's bad practice. The reality is, if stores do this for economic gain short-term, then it's considered (by your philosophy) "good business". But if it causes them to lose most of their loyal customers (as attested to by many on these boards), then they won't be around long term. Opposite of what you suggest. Understanding of how the market works needs to take into account repeat business and customer loyalty.

[Rupe]

I wouldn't sell them for less in order to make buddies, but if I already had buddies (i.e., loyal customers), then I wouldn't gouge them on the price. It's bad practice. The reality is, if stores do this for economic gain short-term, then it's considered (by your philosophy) "good business". But if it causes them to lose most of their loyal customers (as attested to by many on these boards), then they won't be around long term. Opposite of what you suggest. Understanding of how the market works needs to take into account repeat business and customer loyalty.

I agree with that. That is why I previously stated that if it were my decision, I would continue to take care of a "select few loyal customers". My posts are regarding the pricing to the masses. Personal relationships will always add a more complicated dynamic to the selling process.

Shaun...your post was well stated.

[Stan Malinowski]

Notice From Administator:

THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO SINGLE OUT DEALERS.

Messages in this thread singling out a dealer have been deleted.

If Dealers are referenced again in this thread:
1) The message will be deleted.
2) The entire thread will be locked or deleted.
3) Offending members will be warned and/or have their posting rights revoked.

Even though this Forum is graciously paid for and hosted by Jack Gretz at Magdon Music every effort has been made by the Moderators/Adminstrators to not show favoritism of any Anderson dealer over another. Please keep this in mind when posting.

Thanks,
Stan

[tom]

thanks stan.

[killerburst]

I own several guitars and amps worth more (collectively) than some folks earn in a year. I cannot feel good about calling someone else "greedy". Just sayin'...

[Pietro]

The fact is, the way that the free market works in this country is simple. You buy some widgets for a certain price, or make them for a certain price, and then sell it to earn money to afford to feed your family, pay your rent, and make or buy more widgets with the money left over. People are certainly entitled to sell the widgets for what they want to. Sell tons of widgets, you can get by with a "small margin", sell only a few, say... Anderson Guitars... and you need a larger margin. If you find that there is a severe shortage of what you're selling... then you raise the price. It's natural. It's supply and demand.

I DO agree however, that I will try and frequent dealers that give good fair pricing. BUT... look at the market. Most people don't do that. They buy for the best price. Heck... to be honest... I DID! i just got lucky that the dealer I bought from (which was almost our host btw, but the finish I wanted was available elsewhere) was low in his pricing AND had what I wanted...

btw, I'm thrilled with the thought that because of the situation, my Anderson might go UP in value... although I'll never sell it...

[Dave K]

.......and to think all Tom wants to do is build guitars. ;)

[tom]

Amen and amen!

[AndyK]

"With great power, comes great responsibility"
- Spider Man :D

[michaelomiya]

Just bought a Hollow T Classic Desert Sunset at full list retail, instead of at the more normal 25-30% discount usually experienced here in Houston. Outstanding guitar, but I'll never go back to that local retailer for a major purchase ever again.

first off thanks to the administration gods for the reminder regarding dealers.

with that, I am happy to announce that at least one of our fellow forumites has been repatriated/redressed by his particular dealer. I'll let you guess who:D :cool:

he writes, "The cyber skies here no doubt have eyes, but I thought you would like to know that today my dealer unexpectedly contacted me and proceeded to offer a full cash refund with return of the guitar or 25% cash off the full list price I paid for the HTC if I wanted to keep it. (Obviously they monitor the forum.) Naturally I kept the HTC, took the cash and am basking in the karma, not to mention the vibe."

Now, isn't that cool? I love a happy ending!:p

[CAPT. PROAM]

Seems in all reality that when the change over happens in March, the production level will be around the 50 to 80 guitars a year.
I'm sure the price on those guitars will be in the 5,000.00 to 8,000.00
range like a P.R.S private stock or modern eagal.
We are all ready seeing the used market selling at NEW sale price,
there are still some gracious dealers doing 25% to 30% off since their inventory is still quite large, but when they get down to the last 3 or 4 Andersons the pricing will probably go to retail as well, or maybe 5% or 10% off.
The retail price for Andersons is set by Tom himself of which he sees as the fair value of these amazing guitars, if you had bought straight from Anderson guitar works and not gone trough a dealer you would pay full retail anyway, and then Tom would be acused of gouging?

Retail pricing may also be a way to keep hording collecters who are scooping up all they can at top discount to resale later, from getting guitars that normaly would go to players who will actually PLAY and ENJOY their Anderson.
From what I understand some dealers are initaily quoting retail, that doesnt mean that they wont work with the person if they know the customer is not a hording collecter who will sand bag these guitars and resale for at a price that only other high end collecters can afford (like a certian pair of vintage and collectable buyers from a guitar retail corporation we all know of)

[CAPT. PROAM]

Seems in all reality that when the change over happens in March, the production level will be around the 50 to 80 guitars a year.
I'm sure the price on those guitars will be in the 5,000.00 to 8,000.00
range like a P.R.S private stock or modern eagal.
We are all ready seeing the used market selling at NEW sale price,
there are still some gracious dealers doing 25% to 30% off since their inventory is still quite large, but when they get down to the last 3 or 4 Andersons the pricing will probably go to retail as well, or maybe 5% or 10% off.
The retail price for Andersons is set by Tom himself of which he sees as the fair value of these amazing guitars, if you had bought straight from Anderson guitar works and not gone trough a dealer you would pay full retail anyway, and then Tom would be acused of gouging?

Retail pricing may also be a way to keep hording collecters who are scooping up all they can at top discount to resale later, from getting guitars that normaly would go to players who will actually PLAY and ENJOY their Anderson.
From what I understand some dealers are initaily quoting retail, that doesnt mean that they wont work with the person if they know the customer is not a hording collecter who will sand bag these guitars and resale for at a price that only other high end collecters can afford (like a certian pair of vintage and collectable buyers from a guitar retail corporation we all know of)

[tom]

you flatter me capt. i would not dream of making guitars that sell for that kind of money. the market determines what guitars will sell for. yes a builder can ask what ever he or she wants, but the consumer is the one who decides whether it will sell or not. if i were to set prices too high, you all would not buy them. i understand that very well. i am not a greedy person, i expect prices to be fair. as for quantity, if i can't make more than 50 guiatrs a year, i'll be looking for a job elsewhere.

[mbrown3]

Tom, you're the man. That's all I have to say.

[michaelomiya]

you flatter me capt. i would not dream of making guitars that sell for that kind of money. the market determines what guitars will sell for. yes a builder can ask what ever he or she wants, but the consumer is the one who decides whether it will sell or not. if i were to set prices too high, you all would not buy them. i understand that very well. i am not a greedy person, i expect prices to be fair. as for quantity, if i can't make more than 50 guiatrs a year, i'll be looking for a job elsewhere.

Tom, your statement hits at the heart of what others miss. You, Laurie and Roy have gained customer loyalty and respect by developing and delivering a fantastic product. But a lot of your competition has as well. What differentiates TAG from the rest is what you've represented here - integrity and equity.

....so let's try for 51 axes/year!:p

[CAPT. PROAM]

You definitely are the man, as for flattery It's deserved!!
If P.R.S can charge 12,000.00 retail for a private stock or modern eagle, then I would see no problem paying the same for and anderson built from the ground up by " the man " himself, In my humble opinion it would be a better insturnment than the P.R.S anyway.
People seem to have no problem paying that price for those guitars, and they sell pretty quick.
Even at 100 guitars a year It's going to be slim pickins'... any word on how those guitars will be allocated?

[tom]

well cap, i'd be happy to build you a $12k guitar if you really want one;) seriously though. i know people sometimes pay crazy prices for fancy guitars, and that's their right. i'm not trying to point fingers here at all. i remember telling my hero jim olson that if people are reselling for 8k, guitars he just delivered for 4k, somethings wrong. should he not be getting that money? let's face it, we don't need 10k+guitars, some want them. it's not wrong, it's just the way the world is. money's value is relative to how much you have. i would hope that people buy guitars because it gives them enjoyment. in the end, the buyer speaks the loudest. i just want to make guitars i can be proud of, and enjoy playing them. after all, this is a hobby gone wild for me. what still keeps me going is making that next guitar to see if it's one tiny step closer to that ever changing elusive tone i hear in my head.

[CAPT. PROAM]

Spoken like a true artist of his craft!

[theatomicjeff]

what still keeps me going is making that next guitar to see if it's one tiny step closer to that ever changing elusive tone i hear in my head.
Tom,
I'd be interested in hearing your description of that tone.

regards,
Jeff

[tom]

the elusive tone put into words? that's pretty tough. it's not really about a particular tone so much as response. what i need tone wise changes with situations. sometimes i need the fat strat neck pickup tone, sometimes that great middle tele sound. next song might need a grinding bridge humbucker tone, then singing solo tone. for me it's more about how the guitar responds to pick attack and how the note blooms or doesn't. it's also about having the guitar disapear in my hands and become part of me. having exactly the sound you expect to happen be there when you hit the 5way and not have to adjust anything else. it's all about getting lost in the music. for the past year it's been an atom special with an m1 in the neck and either an HO2 or H2 in the bridge with the 5way and kickback. 6 tones that all get used on any given night. can't forget the bigsby, that really makes me smile.

[jimmieb]

the elusive tone put into words? that's pretty tough. it's not really about a particular tone so much as response. what i need tone wise changes with situations. sometimes i need the fat strat neck pickup tone, sometimes that great middle tele sound. next song might need a grinding bridge humbucker tone, then singing solo tone. for me it's more about how the guitar responds to pick attack and how the note blooms or doesn't. it's also about having the guitar disapear in my hands and become part of me. having exactly the sound you expect to happen be there when you hit the 5way and not have to adjust anything else. it's all about getting lost in the music. for the past year it's been an atom special with an m1 in the neck and either an HO2 or H2 in the bridge with the 5way and kickback. 6 tones that all get used on any given night. can't forget the bigsby, that really makes me smile.

Tom,
You are my hero and the champion of integrity. Still sold to the craft and the art, and not greedy. Thanks Tom for having the integrity to stay being you!

Jimmie B

[dave]

No one is being "gouged" because no one "needs" a new TAG.
you're pulling my leg aren't you!
"no one "needs" a new TAG"?! - since when?!

[Barry]

the elusive tone put into words? that's pretty tough. it's not really about a particular tone so much as response. what i need tone wise changes with situations. sometimes i need the fat strat neck pickup tone, sometimes that great middle tele sound. next song might need a grinding bridge humbucker tone, then singing solo tone. for me it's more about how the guitar responds to pick attack and how the note blooms or doesn't. it's also about having the guitar disapear in my hands and become part of me. having exactly the sound you expect to happen be there when you hit the 5way and not have to adjust anything else. it's all about getting lost in the music. for the past year it's been an atom special with an m1 in the neck and either an HO2 or H2 in the bridge with the 5way and kickback. 6 tones that all get used on any given night. can't forget the bigsby, that really makes me smile.
Yeah tone has always been evolving and elusive for me . On my gigs i generally have a strat, Tele & a Les Paul . Yes Im willing to drag all those around ! Since the Cobra Ive been using it as an alternative to the LP . It comes down to the song at what instrument can lend the itself to what Im trying to do in that particular song . Im finding alot of new territory with the Cobra . Must play an Atom one day !

[michaelomiya]

you're pulling my leg aren't you!
"no one "needs" a new TAG"?! - since when?!

:D no kidding! "For your g.a.s. pain, take one amp and mix in a really good guitar. For maximum relief, try and acquire a new Anderson Guitar".:p

....hey, Doctor's orders! :D

[michaelomiya]

it's all about getting lost in the music. for the past year it's been an atom special with an m1 in the neck and either an HO2 or H2 in the bridge with the 5way and kickback. 6 tones that all get used on any given night. can't forget the bigsby, that really makes me smile.

tom, so you're saying that the M's on the Atom (w/ kickback) provide a really convincing strat-like bloom? (I know that Mr. Fought has mentioned this more than 1x in his GoTW's.) If so, is it more appreciable from the Special due to its lack of top, or is it all Atom's?

....and to think that I was just rationalizing that I "don't need" and Atom because of my all my Cobra's.......:rolleyes: :p

[tom]

it works great for me. i would also add that the sounds all work together. sometimes a great single coil guitar will not stand up next to a humbucker guitar with the same rig. for me, all these sounds do what i expect them to do. i'm sure a died in the wool vintage strat guy would say it doesn't sound exacxtly like his '57 mary kay. i'm not sure that's really what i'm after though. all the sounds have to be complementry.