Drop Top T vs. Atom

[dano]

Hey all,

I've spent the whole weekend searching the forum and haven't found a consise answer to what I'm looking for.

I have a question about how scale length and hardware influence the tone of a guitar. My personal experiences with Anderson guitars that I’ve owner (just 6 so far) and what I have been told and read just don’t line up. I’m just trying to understand so I can make better decisions on future Anderson purchases based on the tone I’m trying to achieve.

First, here is what I have experienced with some of the guitars I've owned.

Case #1: I’ve got an Alder/Maple DTT with H3/SA1/H1, rosewood board and a Floyd Rose. I was told that the Floyd would sound a little bright, like always having a new set of strings on the guitar. However, this guitar does not have a lot of high end. If I need a little high end I simply reach for the presence knob on my Bogner and it’s all good. I do LOVE this guitar. However, I did not expect this guitar to be so warm.

Case #2: I was looking for another Anderson and decided on a Cobra. I called TAG was told that the Cobra would have all the low end chunk of a Les Paul and possibly more. When I got it I found that it didn’t have much low end at all and certainly not the low end of my Floyd equipped DTT. So I replaced the H2+ in the bridge with an H3. This helped but overall the guitar was very, very mid rangy. So, I called Roy and he said that if I wanted more low end to get a 25 ½” scale guitar. (Hmmm.... Aren’t Les Paul’s 24 ¾???) Anyway, both the sound of the guitar and what Roy told me were not what I expected.

Case #3: I followed Roy’s advice and immediately traded in the Cobra. I read on one of the GOTWs where it said that the vintage tremolo bridge has more low end than the fixed bridge so I traded the Cobra for a guitar EXACTLY like my Floyd equipped guitar but without a middle pickup and with a vintage tremolo. This guitar didn’t have as much low end as the Floyd equipped guitar, was less mid rangy than the Cobra but had a bright upper mid range edginess. I did not expect it to be so different and actually brighter than my Floyd equipped guitar.

Well now I’m considering trading the non-Floyd equipped guitar for an Atom. But, based on some of the things I’ve been told this may not be a good move for me seeing as the Atom is a 24 ¾” scale guitar and has a fixed bridge.

I know that two guitars made out of the same trees with the same hardware can sound different. But have I just got guitars that are exceptions to the tonal rules?

All this being said:

With the same pickups, is a Cobra or Atom unable to get the low end of a Drop Top or Drop Top T due to the different scale lengths or woods?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[sylvanshine]

I have found that every Anderson I've owned has a unique sound, even amongst the same model with the same electronics. One side of me wants to say to you "congrats on finding a guitar with the low end you were looking for". But the other side of me understands how frustrating it can be tracking down the elusive tone.

Think about all of the elements that need to come together to make a guitar. The natural variance in wood can have a huge impact on tone. It's amazing that any two guitars sound alike.

While I would never discourage anyone's tone quest, I personally have come to embrace each of my Anderson's unique characteristics. To me, 95% of how a player sounds is in their fingers and how they dial in their sound on an amp. The other 5% is what we are all chasing.

So, while I can't answer your question, I can say from personal experience that you should try different Anderson flavors. Enjoy the journey.

p.s. I also believe that only a Les Paul has the Les Paul chunk. I prefer to play guitars that intonate well, stay in tune, and play effortlessly across the entire neck. That is why I play Andersons. I got over missing the Les Paul chunk.

[AndyK]

I agree with Jay! Nothing sounds like a Les Paul, which is why they are still making them after half a century! They are heavy, awkward, hard to keep in tune--but they sound like a Les Paul!

I bought a McCarty because they were supposed to be "PRS's version of a 59 Les Paul". Compared to my Les Paul, the McCarty sounds...like an SG! It's a great guitar, very easy to play, etc. But it doesn't sound like my Les Paul.

I'm selling my McCarty and my Fender Floyd Rose Classic, and using the proceeds to pay for the Drop Top I'm ordering. I know the Anderson won't sound like the McCarty, or the Strat (at least I hope not)! But playability and tone wise, I am trading UP!

[dano]

Thanks for the responses guys!

However, I don't think I made myself clear in my original post. I only mentioned the Les Paul because it's typically a reference for a guitar with low end. I have an R7 that I'm very happy with and I'm not looking to replace it, nor am I looking duplicate it.

However, I am looking for an Anderson guitar as a backup to the Floyd equipped guitar I mentioned that can do drop-D. My first attempt didn't quite do it for me.

My point was more about comparing the frequency response between two Anderson guitars with different scale lengths. Is the Atom able to deliver the low end response of a Drop Top? At one time Roy basically told me that a Cobra wouldn't due to it's shorter scale length.

So, for those of you who have a Drop Top and an Atom... What do you think?

[olectric]

At one time Roy basically told me that a Cobra wouldn't [deliver low end response] due to it's shorter scale length.


I would like to hear what he meant by this...I'm definitely no expert, but I thought the shorter scaled guitars had the beefier, thicker tone. :confused:

[pluto]

Thanks for the responses guys!

However, I don't think I made myself clear in my original post. I only mentioned the Les Paul because it's typically a reference for a guitar with low end. I have an R7 that I'm very happy with and I'm not looking to replace it, nor am I looking duplicate it.

However, I am looking for an Anderson guitar as a backup to the Floyd equipped guitar I mentioned that can do drop-D. My first attempt didn't quite do it for me.

My point was more about comparing the frequency response between two Anderson guitars with different scale lengths. Is the Atom able to deliver the low end response of a Drop Top? At one time Roy basically told me that a Cobra wouldn't due to it's shorter scale length.

So, for those of you who have a Drop Top and an Atom... What do you think?

I think what those guys are saying is that all guitars will sound different to some extent even if they are using the same woods and scale lengths. To give you an example, I have 3 maple top/basswood body drop top type guitars and they all sound different. As sylvanshine said, the key to getting them to sound similar is to adjust your amp's eq, but even then, there will be differences. As far as low end response-I think you have to clarify. If you mean "tighter" low-end, than I would think a Fender scale guitar will be better. If you mean, a thick, juicy but less defined low-end, than I would say a gibson scale length is better.

[pluto]

I would like to hear what he meant by this...I'm definitely no expert, but I thought the shorter scaled guitars had the beefier, thicker tone. :confused:

Again, it depends on his definition of low end.

[tom]

for me, atoms have the thickest low mids, as others have said, the longer scale has the tightest low lows. when i go from my hollow t classic to my atom special, i get a way fatter juicier middle, but the low bass is not as tight.

[dano]

I know that two guitars of the same type can sound different. I think that helps us justify having so many, even if they are the same basic configuration. I like having guitars that have a different voice and typically don't adjust my amp for each guitar. If I want a certain tone I'll usually pick up a guitar that matches the tone I'm going for rather than adjust the amp.

Here's my thinking...

If ALL guitars produce the exact same range of frequencies then they differ only in the amplitude of the frequencies within that finite range. However, I guess it is my belief that the components, construction and scale length of a guitar can determine both the amplitude AND range of frequencies. Is there anything more than that?

When I was told that if I wanted more low end to get a 25 1/2" scale guitar it made me think that the lower range of the frequencies would be extended as well as the amplitude of the lower frequencies increasing (or the middle and upper frequencies decreasing).

I wouldn't call the Cobra that I had thick or juicy which is making me pose the question concerning the Atom as compared to a Drop Top.

However, I did decide to trade into an Atom and give it a try. I guess playing one is worth a thousand words. In two days I'll know the answer for myself.

Thanks for all of the imput!

[pluto]

I know that two guitars of the same type can sound different. I think that helps us justify having so many, even if they are the same basic configuration. I like having guitars that have a different voice and typically don't adjust my amp for each guitar. If I want a certain tone I'll usually pick up a guitar that matches the tone I'm going for rather than adjust the amp.

Here's my thinking...

If ALL guitars produce the exact same range of frequencies then they differ only in the amplitude of the frequencies within that finite range. However, I guess it is my belief that the components, construction and scale length of a guitar can determine both the amplitude AND range of frequencies. Is there anything more than that?

When I was told that if I wanted more low end to get a 25 1/2" scale guitar it made me think that the lower range of the frequencies would be extended as well as the amplitude of the lower frequencies increasing (or the middle and upper frequencies decreasing).

I wouldn't call the Cobra that I had thick or juicy which is making me pose the question concerning the Atom as compared to a Drop Top.

However, I did decide to trade into an Atom and give it a try. I guess playing one is worth a thousand words. In two days I'll know the answer for myself.

Thanks for all of the imput!

IMO-good choice. The atom is my favorite guitar nowadays-Not a les paul but it leans towards that general direction but way more refined with a less biting top end. And to top it off-easy access to all frets!

[jimmieb]

One thing we haven't brought up is that Anderson's over-all are a much broader bandwidth guitar tone, in all the Anderson models, and especially in comparision to other guitar makers. Just to use the LP example, the LP seems to have a high cut filter on it, almost to the point of being nasally sounding. Little or no sparkle at all. My point being that Anderson's broader bandwidth effects how we preceive the low mid's and lows in comparasion to other guitar makers. Suhr guitars also seems to have the similar extended bandwidth tone.
We don't hear the lower chunk predominately (or the same as similar wood/scale guitars), we hear other high frequency over tones that influence our over all perception of the lower tones. To use a graphic equalizer example if I start with 125 hertz at + 5db then drive 2 khz,4 khz, 8khz +3 db, it will effect how we preceive the 125 hertz signal. Even though I haven't touched 125 hertz. The perception would be less predominate bass by nature of more highs at 2 khz, 4 khz, 8khz @ +3 db. So if we compare within other Anderson models the same standard rules apply i.e. short scale mahogany guitars have more low-mids, longer scale alder guitars have more lows, scouped mids and sparkle in the highs. As soon as you compare Anderson's to other manufacturer, you have to take into consideration the broader Anderson bandwidth.
For me I love the broader bandwidth because it's easier to remove a frequencies than to try to add them in, in fact adding in frequencies usually sounds unnatural. Anderson's are extremely versatile guitars by their very nature and the Atom is the pinnacle of that in the Anderson line. So as Tom and Roy say, If you want the most versatile guitar around get an Atom.
Just to add I own a Cobra that is very thick sounding, a little bit heavy, but that piece of mahogany is very chunky sounding. It's really not very sparkley by nature of what I think is the wood. It probably is pretty different compared to most Cobras with the same bridge and pick-ups.

Jimmie B

[pluto]

One thing we haven't brought up is that Anderson's over-all are a much broader bandwidth guitar tone, in all the Anderson models, and especially in comparision to other guitar makers. Just to use the LP example, the LP seems to have a high cut filter on it, almost to the point of being nasally sounding. Little or no sparkle at all. My point being that Anderson's broader bandwidth effects how we preceive the low mid's and lows in comparasion to other guitar makers. Suhr guitars also seems to have the similar extended bandwidth tone.
We don't hear the lower chunk predominately (or the same as similar wood/scale guitars), we hear other high frequency over tones that influence our over all perception of the lower tones. To use a graphic equalizer example if I start with 125 hertz at + 5db then drive 2 khz,4 khz, 8khz +3 db, it will effect how we preceive the 125 hertz signal. Even though I haven't touched 125 hertz. The perception would be less predominate bass by nature of more highs at 2 khz, 4 khz, 8khz @ +3 db. So if we compare within other Anderson models the same standard rules apply i.e. short scale mahogany guitars have more low-mids, longer scale alder guitars have more lows, scouped mids and sparkle in the highs. As soon as you compare Anderson's to other manufacturer, you have to take into consideration the broader Anderson bandwidth.
For me I love the broader bandwidth because it's easier to remove a frequencies than to try to add them in, in fact adding in frequencies usually sounds unnatural. Anderson's are extremely versatile guitars by their very nature and the Atom is the pinnacle of that in the Anderson line. So as Tom and Roy say, If you want the most versatile guitar around get an Atom.
Just to add I own a Cobra that is very thick sounding, a little bit heavy, but that piece of mahogany is very chunky sounding. It's really not very sparkley by nature of what I think is the wood. It probably is pretty different compared to most Cobras with the same bridge and pick-ups.

Jimmie B

interesting insight. As to your last comment, I've owned a bunch of cobra s's and have played many cobras. To me the difference between the cobra and the atom is that the atom has bit more bottom to it. Is it the low mids or the lows? Not sure, but the atom has more of a perceived bottom than the cobra. And the bottom doesn't get farty at all-it still remains fairly tight.

[bruce]

And the bottom doesn't get farty at all-it still remains fairly tight.

All this farty bottom talk is pretty funny guys.... Tom's "juicy" comment brings it full-circle.

[brian b]

Maybe you just need an amp that the bass goes to 11. :D

[dano]

To use a graphic equalizer example if I start with 125 hertz at + 5db then drive 2 khz,4 khz, 8khz +3 db, it will effect how we preceive the 125 hertz signal. Even though I haven't touched 125 hertz. The perception would be less predominate bass by nature of more highs at 2 khz, 4 khz, 8khz @ +3 db.

Jimmie B

Jimmie,

This seems to better explain what I said eariler about the range and amplitude of the frequencies that a guitar produces. I think that the Cobra I had just had a bump in the mids somewhere that probably hid the lower frequencies and so it didn't do it for me. It worked for someone else because it didn't last very long at the dealer I traded it in to.

For the record. I love Anderson guitars and I think they have diminished my desire for other brands because of their build quality, components and customer support. This is why I'm trading into another Anderson guitar. The Atom that I'm getting is a looker, I just hope this particular one can deliver what I'm looking for.

[tom]

i will expand on something jimmie said. the atom is the pinnacle of what i'm personally looking for, at least for now, that seems to change from time to time. it will probably not be the pinnacle for a died in the wool strat guy. i only mention this because we all are not all looking for the same thing, and that's a good thing.

[pluto]

All this farty bottom talk is pretty funny guys.... Tom's "juicy" comment brings it full-circle.

Hmmmm, I'm thinking about Mexican for lunch.

[enr1co]

Hmmmm, I'm thinking about Mexican for lunch.

Mark, Ive yet to find good mexican grinds in Hawaii but I could go
for some Zippys chili and rice right now :)

Sorry for off tangent post- its all Bruces fault and its almost the lunchtime
here ;)

e

[pluto]

Mark, Ive yet to find good mexican grinds in Hawaii but I could go
for some Zippys chili and rice right now :)

Sorry for off tangent post- its all Bruces fault and its almost the lunchtime
here ;)

e

Heh, going off tangent and stealing threads are my specialties. And I too blame this on Bruce with his juicy fart bottom comment. Good Mexican food in Hawaii-North Shore purportedly has some excellent Mexican restaurants (there sure are a lot of them). In town though, you're right-slim pickings-maybe Quinteros on Piikoi, Azteca in Kaimuki or LaBamba on Kapahulu are passable. Zippys chili and rice sound pretty good too-Isn''t the frozen version available to you local guys living on the mainland now (at least in Cal.)?

[dano]

Getting this thread out of the toilet.

Tom,

How often when play testing a guitar do you reject it due to tonal reasons? Is there a balance between what you feel is your personal preference and what you feel others may like that broadens the criteria? Also, are you able to cull out wood that you think wouldn't sound good before you use it?

[jimmieb]

All this farty bottom talk is pretty funny guys.... Tom's "juicy" comment brings it full-circle.
Oh yeah the farty bottom boys... I saw that movie, I am a man of constant sorrows... www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mgt.asp?ppn=gt0051699
You know it has always illuded me, to discribe tone. Some folks understand farty bottom talk and some get juicy fat bottom. If you can explain the color of a red rose to a blind person, then I think you've got a starting place. Atom tone is Atom tone by any other name it would sound so sweet. Yes, Bill Shakespeare understood the Atom Tone.

Jimmie B

[jimmieb]

Jimmie,

This seems to better explain what I said eariler about the range and amplitude of the frequencies that a guitar produces. I think that the Cobra I had just had a bump in the mids somewhere that probably hid the lower frequencies and so it didn't do it for me. It worked for someone else because it didn't last very long at the dealer I traded it in to.

For the record. I love Anderson guitars and I think they have diminished my desire for other brands because of their build quality, components and customer support. This is why I'm trading into another Anderson guitar. The Atom that I'm getting is a looker, I just hope this particular one can deliver what I'm looking for.
Understood... The pursuit to get what you hear in your head into your hand goes on, Good Luck!

Jimmie B

[tom]

How often when play testing a guitar do you reject it due to tonal reasons? Is there a balance between what you feel is your personal preference and what you feel others may like that broadens the criteria? Also, are you able to cull out wood that you think wouldn't sound good before you use it?
i can't say that i've rejected a whole guitar. lots of things we do would not be my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean they don't do what they are supposed to do. i try not to let what i prefer get in the way of what someone else may like. we do put limitations on what we will let people order because they fall outside of the range of what we think will satisfy customers. i did recently get a request for a 10 lb. plus atom. we try so hard to get light mahogany that it would be hard to fill that one. there have been a few that i've suggested pickup changes for, and i think there was one that needed a new neck.
so much labor goes into making a guitar that we are very picky about the raw materials to make sure we're not wasting time on bad wood. i'd much rather cut up bad neck blanks or raw necks than the much malighned prs practice of cutting up fully done guitars.

[AndyK]

so much labor goes into making a guitar that we are very picky about the raw materials to make sure we're not wasting time on bad wood. i'd much rather cut up bad neck blanks or raw necks than the much malighned prs practice of cutting up fully done guitars.

I've played many Gibson and Fenders that SHOULD have been cut up right there in the store! They obviously didn't care about wasting time on bad wood--they made guitars out of it! :)

[dano]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the insight! I got the Atom in and it was pretty much what you guys had said. Good low mids and sweet upper mids and highs. Different than what I have in a good way. Your comparisons to a Drop Top were pretty right on.

The guitar is new but it’s over a year old. It has a little bit of shop wear and the volume pot is messed up and the bridge pickup squeals uncontrollably. I know these issues can be taken care of under warranty even though it’s a hassle, especially since I just got it.

Here’s my problem…. I’ve never played the standard neck before and I’m finding that it doesn’t fit me very well. However, the top on this guitar is absolutely gorgeous and that’s making me want to hang on to it. Plus, the guitar sounds good. I’m guessing that to spec out a guitar exactly like this one with a beefier neck would probably cost me a little more than what I paid, however I don’t know that it would look as good or sound the same.

Would you?

A) Pay the $500 to get a new neck on the guitar since it’s going to TAG anyway.
B) Return the guitar and order a new one, rolling the dice on looks and tone.

Thanks!

[michaelomiya]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the insight! I got the Atom in and it was pretty much what you guys had said. Good low mids and sweet upper mids and highs. Different than what I have in a good way. Your comparisons to a Drop Top were pretty right on.

The guitar is new but it’s over a year old. It has a little bit of shop wear and the volume pot is messed up and the bridge pickup squeals uncontrollably. I know these issues can be taken care of under warranty even though it’s a hassle, especially since I just got it.

Here’s my problem…. I’ve never played the standard neck before and I’m finding that it doesn’t fit me very well. However, the top on this guitar is absolutely gorgeous and that’s making me want to hang on to it. Plus, the guitar sounds good. I’m guessing that to spec out a guitar exactly like this one with a beefier neck would probably cost me a little more than what I paid, however I don’t know that it would look as good or sound the same.

Would you?

A) Pay the $500 to get a new neck on the guitar since it’s going to TAG anyway.
B) Return the guitar and order a new one, rolling the dice on looks and tone.

Thanks!

B - all the way. The experience of ordering an Anderson is worth it. From a $'s perspective, consider whether you will ever have to sell the Atom and then determine whether current market prices will allow you to recoup your basis (cost) + $500 + any shipping.

[tom]

B for sure. i feel like the atoms are even more consistant than everything else. part of that is that there are not all the wood options. but there is something about the overall geometry and bridge that make great consistancy.

[dano]

I’ve ordered 5 Andersons so far and it has always been a very positive experience. However, given the choice of having a guitar in hand verses having the same guitar on order, I personally would rather have it in hand. You have a very good point about resale.

I know I should say that it’s all about the tone but… for me personally, the top on this guitar is one of, if not the best tops I’ve seen so far on an Atom. Are the chances pretty good that I could order a guitar with a top that would match it?

[michaelomiya]

I’ve ordered 5 Andersons so far and it has always been a very positive experience. However, given the choice of having a guitar in hand verses having the same guitar on order, I personally would rather have it in hand. You have a very good point about resale.

I know I should say that it’s all about the tone but… for me personally, the top on this guitar is one of, if not the best tops I’ve seen so far on an Atom. Are the chances pretty good that I could order a guitar with a top that would match it?

dano, I don't think that there's a person on this forum that hasn't thought the exact same thing (in regards to the top, "uniqueness", perfection, etc.). However, IMHO, it's always comes down to the exit strategy - even on the ones that I've never sold (or ones that I told the wife, "I'll never sell 'er - this is the best guitar I've ever had" :rolleyes: :cool: ). And over the years, I take solace in what has become a mantra from Roy, "every Anderson is perfect. Some more so than others, but perfection nonetheless. Seek not what you think is real, but accept what is real" (maybe, or something like that!). How does that apply? I dunno, but I'm amazed that I could recite/remember such wise words, so I threw it in there! :p YMMV.

[tom]

that's a quote i haven't heard here, and i've heard a lot of 'em.

[michaelomiya]

that's a quote i haven't heard here, and i've heard a lot of 'em.

hmmm.....I'll have to "check" w/ the Master philosopher.....like I said it's from memory, so I probably combined 5 of his ideas into one! :rolleyes: :D (I feel a scolding coming on! :eek: :p )