Switching Systems

[sylvanshine]

I've decided it's time to upgrade my live rig. I'm exhausted by all the choices...Ground Control Pro w/GCX, Axess FX1, WOBO, CAE, et al. Even looked at the TC Electronic G-System. Need some real world recommendations.

Here is what I need to do...
*Control channel switching on my Bogner Ecstasy Classic independent of what effects are selected
*Rack up my pedals and create a cleaned up pedal board (instant access)
*One of the switches needs to be a tap tempo for my delay (or can that be handled through an expression pedal input?)

Can anybody point a brutha in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

[Yngve]

I use GCX and Ground Control Pro. It will do all the things you mention above, but maybe you will need two GCX if you use many pedals and want switching of the XTC. The GCX sounds good too I think. It has a very usable buffer.

The Ground Control Pro can be set up with one switch to control tap-tempo, and you can also add an expression pedal to it for controlling tempo, volume ect via midi.

[ToneLounge]

I have a bit of experience in this ;)

Two parts of the equation: 1) Loops/Control functions needed, and 2) Switches needed to control loops/control funtions. Start by making a list of the loops and control funtions you need. It will look like this:

1. Compressor
2. Overdrive A
3. Dirt box
4. Vibe
5. Arion chorus
6. Tremolo
7. Delay

8. Channel 2 sw
9. Channel 3 sw
10. Boost function

11. Tap Tempo sw (could be MIDI if using rack delay)

This list will determine what switcher/loop controller you should look for - in this case, we'll need a solution that can cover 11 functions at minimum. Whatever you choose, always get something with more loops than you currently need, or go the modular route.

Switcher/loopers:
Axess GRX4 - 4 loops
Axess CRX4 - 4 switch functions (for amp switching)
DMC GCX
CAE 2x4
CAE 4x4

Floorcontrollers:
Axess FX-1
Rocktron All Access
CAE RS-10 + expander

In the sample above, I would recommend a GCX for the effects plus a CRX4 for switching the amp. I would control everything via MIDI with a FX-1 or All Access.

I'm happy to help with specifics to your rig if needed.

All the best,
Brian

[sylvanshine]

Wow, thanks Brian. I feel stupid that I don't know who you are/what you do? Are you a touring player or do you run a music store?

[sylvanshine]

Thanks Yngve!

[guitarzan]

Sylvanshine,
Brian's not the type to toot his own horn, so I'll put this nice and simple for you. Name your top 5 favorite players from the last 20 years. Now name your top 5 favorite live shows/tours from the last 20 years. Now name your top 5 favorite pieces of musical gear from the last 20 years. Chances are, Brian did the guitar rigs and/or sound design for at least one of each.

Oh, and he's a great player too.

[ToneLounge]

Thanks 'Zan - I've been blessed to work with some really cool people and really cool gear.

'Shine - happy to help with signal flow, ground issues, power, MIDI, etc... whatever you need. I do not sell gear, but I can help you get it all working together in a musical way!

Cheers,
B

[Suriel Zayas]

jay,

ground control is an excellent product and i have seen many guys on tour with me use it. however, i have been using a looper system (pedalboards.com) for everything, including true bypass effects. this creates an (artificial) feel of automation that is really helpful on stage. my looper system includes amp switchers, tempo switches, and balanced xlr's connected to direct boxes for acoustic-to-pa signals. these loopers have extended the lifespan of my stompbox switches and the boxes in general.

the only drawback with the looper system is you have to keep all your pedals in a pedalboard type unit, keeping them in drawers away from the stage would possibly only work with a ground control/midi system(?).

whatever you do share with us what you decide.

[sylvanshine]

guitarzan- thanks for the heads up

tonelounge- thanks for offer and nice to meet you

Suriel- I might be headed down the same path as you. Any pics that you can share? The true bypass strips they make are very cool. Working on an idea where you could mount the strip underneath the surface of the board so that most of the wiring is hidden. Only the face plate with the switch and LED would be visible on top of the board. Flush mounted I guess.

[ToneLounge]

Another "automated" pedal board option is this:

http://www.musicomlab.co.kr/

I've seen a couple come through lately and they work quite nicely. You get programmable loops for your pedals, a version of instant access, and MIDI control over other gear. Add an amp switcher and you're set.

[Suriel Zayas]

Working on an idea where you could mount the strip underneath the surface of the board so that most of the wiring is hidden. Only the face plate with the switch and LED would be visible on top of the board. Flush mounted I guess.
if you go with one of tom's custom boards all the wires are hidden under the plywood where your pedals sit. you can always build your own board and cutomize it for your need. the only wires visible on the loopers are the coonections to the switches and that is very minimal. here are some pics with at least one of my boards at some point.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/surielz/DSC00237.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/surielz/Pedalboardbypassstrip.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/surielz/singh1.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/surielz/zipperer.gif

tom has plenty more pics on his site.

[GaryMcT]

I use a couple of Axess GRX4's to switch pedals, change amp channel (although it's only two channels and only needs a single instrument cable from the GRX4 to switch), and switch in and out the piezo signal. All of this is done based on midi program from the MFC5.

If you have an FX1, I think you could use midi program to wholesale change the whole config, and midi control codes to do indivual changes like amp channel, etc. I'm not sure if this combo works. . you might have to go completely with CC to get it to work.

[robert75354]

Jay, I'll trade you this tip for that new Black HTC...deal?

Dude,check out the Carl Martin Combinator.

I'm still considering one of these, I think it's a very cool product, but I don't know anyone who has used one, it's probably good coming from Carl Martin.

I was thinking of creating a snake to run back to my rack gear,pedals and amps.

Add your expression pedal, value controller, even use your stock channel switcher for you amp, or use the amp like a pedal in a loop.

Cost effective and simple.

Might be something to consider.


Robert

[m_lance]

I've thought lots about pedal board setup and have landed with a simpler setup that works for me. I build my own switch boxes (not to sell, just for my own use - they're really easy to build)), so I've got the in-house capability to do a bit of customization.

I keep all the pedals on the board and put the modulation pedals in a true bypass loop. This way, I can have multiple modulation pedals turn on or off at the same time, but all other pedals are driven by their own stomp switches. That loop box also has a tuner out.

Here's why I think this is good. I've gone through periods where I rearrange my board every few months (usually after buying a new pedal). If everything's on the board, it's easy to rearrange or try new options. The GCP may allow you to to this but it doesn't look that easy to reprogram without messing up what you've already got.

2nd good reason is it's inexpensive.
My 2 cents.

[sylvanshine]

Dude,check out the Carl Martin Combinator.

Robert
I looked at that, and I also looked at a similar concept coming out of England called the Gig Rig. My problem with both of them is how much pedal board space it takes up. I'm still tempted by the Prog Looper from WOBO, a Polish company that has an office in NY and has an eBay store. http://www.true-bypass-loopers.com/ What I like about their system is that the floor unit is very compact for 8, 10 or 12 programs. The down side is that they use a second patch bay type unit that would necessitate racking the pedals back by the amp.

I'm in contact with Tom at pedalboards.com to get a quote. If it comes in even close to these other systems, I think I'll pull the trigger on that. I'll never have Suriel's chops, but I can have his board! Booooohahahahahahahahahaha!

[sylvanshine]

I've gone through periods where I rearrange my board every few months (usually after buying a new pedal).
Good point. Whatever I get needs to be flexible. Thanks.

[dannopelli]

Another "automated" pedal board option is this:

http://www.musicomlab.co.kr/

I've seen a couple come through lately and they work quite nicely. You get programmable loops for your pedals, a version of instant access, and MIDI control over other gear. Add an amp switcher and you're set.

Brian,

This looks really intersting. Plus it is an "of the shelf" simple retrofit.

The site shows a board with 11 pedals on a board. I have exactly that. But the unit itself has only eight loops plus a volume loop. Is it possible to make this work? How would one set up 11 pedals in a way that they could use them independantly or in loops?

Plus I currently send two pedals to the FX loop, (Chorus and Delay) while the wah, compressor and several OD pedals go to the front. Can that be accomplished with any "off the shelf" product you are aware of?

On cheap snakes for guys with front of the amp/back FX loop signals.

I made two, one 15' and one 25'. My signal goes guitar-->board-->amp-->board--ampFX loop.

Use George L cable. WHy George L? Because like all stage cables ends become goofy over time. You can snip them quicky and be back up in no time. The plus age nice and small too for this application.

You will need 65 feet, three right angle and three straight plugs, for a 20' snake. You can run power too, but I would avoid that for obvious reasons.

Go to a REAL electronics store and buy 3' to 4' sections of shrink wrap tubing. Cut it into one foot sections. Run your cable through and leave a two inch gap between each section. That makes it easer to fold up into a gig bag. Leave at least 8"-10" free on one end for connection to your patch bay on your board. Leave one end two feet long on the other end so that you can connect to the back of the amp FX loop and front of the amp.

Mark each cable at each end with different color electric tape so you can quickly determine the sends and returns. I also mark my pedal board and amps the same way.

I'll try to post a few pics later.

[guitarzan]

I made two, one 15' and one 25'. My signal goes guitar-->board-->amp-->board--ampFX loop.


I'll try to post a few pics later.

I'm looking forward to pics just to see the thing in action.

[Suriel Zayas]

I'll never have Suriel's chops, but I can have his board!

trust me, you are better off with my board. ;) tom is a really nice guy. heck, i'll reach out to him tommorrow.

[dannopelli]

Here is my board:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/dannopelli/board.jpg

Here is the snake described above. Notice the shrink tubing is in one foot lengths with two inch gaps for folding. And the ends are marked for easy set up in low light stage conditions. Also the amp side has the fron amp cable 12 inches longer than the back end cable.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/dannopelli/snake.jpg

Notice the patch bay and amp FX loop is marked to match the snake ends:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/dannopelli/PatchBay.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/dannopelli/sendreturn.jpg

[jimmieb]

For me I've had both a GCX and Ground Control and a looper system like Suriel is talking about. The GCX is beneficial if you put all your pedals in drawer/rack ala 'The Edge'. Digital Music Corp used to have an accessory pedal to turn off/on the 8 loops separately. Not being able to turn an individual pedal off/on is the main down side of this system. Still you can set up all combination of on/off with your Midi Pedal. The buffering on the GCX if you a true bypass guy might be a negative. I believe a buffer at the end of your signal chain (Like the Barber Launch Pad or a Crossroads) is a great benefit if you are running a signal chain beyond 25 to 30 feet. I personally like the ease of working with a looper system it is more flexable, sounds better and is easier to work on or change pedals. So far the I'm extremely happy with my loopers. The are so many custom variations like Tuner Mute, summing multible loops, master on/off. Check out www.loooper.com as well as Suriel's guy. I wish now I would of gone with Suriel' guy, Tom. He's a little bit more expensive, but worth it. They take up less space and look to be stronger/better built. A custom Looper version will need some good planning on your part but the variation are endless.

Jimmie B

[sylvanshine]

Dave at Loooper isn't making pedals for a while, if ever, due to some physical limitations. It's all on his web page. I had him make a couple of pedals for me. One is stellar and works flawlessly. A 2 loop he made for me popped like an atomic bomb when you stepped on a switch. He blamed Bogner. Bogner said put step down caps on the inputs and outputs. Dave took that as a personal attack. It left a bad taste in my mouth and a $280 paperweight.

The absolute coolest board on the planet is at www.pedalgear.net But when you start adding up the pieces it gets to $1,500 REAL quick.

Tom and I are going to hook up on Monday next week. Can't see that not working out.

[Suriel Zayas]

www.pedalgear.net
i saw them at namm one year and it can be lots of $$$$$$$$$$$. my testimony with tom's products is that mine live in the cargo area of airports and aircrafts, being tossed around like the old samsonite gorrilla commercial. the most that ever happens is that the connectors on the george l's become loose and must be tightened. and i was recently at tom's shop with john scofield and john mentioned, that he is loctite (i believe it's a 3m product) to secure those connectors in place. as for the bypass strips, they are made of very good quality materials, none has failed me yet and are silent. good luck!

[sylvanshine]

I went with the TC Electronics G-System and replaced my entire pedal board. Really impressed with the sounds, the flexibility, ease of use and live performance of this unit. It cleaned up my signal chain and my amp has never sounded better.

If anyone is looking at a space saving multi-effects and amp controlling solution, I highly recommend the G-System. Not for everyone, but definitely the right choice for me.

[sylvanshine]

By the way, after 3 e-mails Tom and I never connected. His loss as I was ready to go with his pedalboard.

[Devnor]

I've been using two Lehle D-Loop switchers; one before the amp and the other in the FX loop. Works like a wonder with the Boogies. They are kinda pricey but sound good and they are built like a tank.

[Barry]

Suriel,

Thanks for the info on this cool site . Must have a board built soon .

Barry

[Suriel Zayas]

Suriel,

Thanks for the info on this cool site . Must have a board built soon .

Barry

jay, sorry things didn't work out with tom. i tried to call him before i left on tour, but we couldn't hook up, hope everything is fine with him.

barry, they make a really nice pealboard, hope you don't have any issues hooking up with tom.

[Yngve]

To Brian, or anyone else who can answer me. I have a Matchless DC30 and a GCX that I use as a loop switcher for pedals in my rack. Lately I've been playing without the rack and just the guitar plugged straight into the amp with no fx's or pedals.

Yesterday I went to our rehearsals and rigged the full rigg. I suddenly noticed that something lacked. The guitar sounded a bit fuller and alive when I plugged it right into the amp, and when I used the rack it sounded a bit thinner and more "sterile". So I experimented to find out what element in the rack was changing the tone. Stripping it all down, I found that the sound changed a bit when I plugged the guitar straight into the buffer of the GCX and straight out to the amp (not going through the loops or anything else) compared to plugging the guitar into the amp without the buffer.

It all comes down to this: The sound was better, more responsive, more dynamic, fuller and had more brilliance without the GCX buffer! I used a really short and good cable, but I thought the buffer teoretically was supposed to sound more like what it sounds like without the buffer?

I really need a buffer in my setup as I split the signal to drive either channel 1, channel 2 or both on my Matchless. This is my setup:

Guitar -> RMC Wizard Wah -> Mirage Comp (loop 1) -> SparkleDrive (loop2) -> OCD (loop3) -> PodXtPro (loop4) -> HydraBoost (loop5) -> GCX Buffer and then Y-split -> Channel 1 (loop7) AND/OR Channel 2 (loop8)

I realize that I cannot get the sound of a short cable plugged straigth from the guitar into the Matchless when using the rack between. But the clean sound changed quite a bit (it's probably a psycological problem now that I know it sounds better without the rack). So where would the ideal place be to buffer the signal?

[Barry]

jay, sorry things didn't work out with tom. i tried to call him before i left on tour, but we couldn't hook up, hope everything is fine with him.

barry, they make a really nice pealboard, hope you don't have any issues hooking up with tom.
Do you mind if I ask what sort of money you paid for your pedalboard ? I really like the bypass strip.

[jimmieb]

To Brian, or anyone else who can answer me. I have a Matchless DC30 and a GCX that I use as a loop switcher for pedals in my rack. Lately I've been playing without the rack and just the guitar plugged straight into the amp with no fx's or pedals.

Yesterday I went to our rehearsals and rigged the full rigg. I suddenly noticed that something lacked. The guitar sounded a bit fuller and alive when I plugged it right into the amp, and when I used the rack it sounded a bit thinner and more "sterile". So I experimented to find out what element in the rack was changing the tone. Stripping it all down, I found that the sound changed a bit when I plugged the guitar straight into the buffer of the GCX and straight out to the amp (not going through the loops or anything else) compared to plugging the guitar into the amp without the buffer.

It all comes down to this: The sound was better, more responsive, more dynamic, fuller and had more brilliance without the GCX buffer! I used a really short and good cable, but I thought the buffer teoretically was supposed to sound more like what it sounds like without the buffer?

I really need a buffer in my setup as I split the signal to drive either channel 1, channel 2 or both on my Matchless. This is my setup:

Guitar -> RMC Wizard Wah -> Mirage Comp (loop 1) -> SparkleDrive (loop2) -> OCD (loop3) -> PodXtPro (loop4) -> HydraBoost (loop5) -> GCX Buffer and then Y-split -> Channel 1 (loop7) AND/OR Channel 2 (loop8)

I realize that I cannot get the sound of a short cable plugged straigth from the guitar into the Matchless when using the rack between. But the clean sound changed quite a bit (it's probably a psycological problem now that I know it sounds better without the rack). So where would the ideal place be to buffer the signal?

I use a Roger Mayer "Crossroads" AB box, which I use as a buffer at the end of my FX chain. I believe Barber has a buffer as well, which I hear is really great. I also use my Fulltone Fat boost in front of my signal, which is always on. I set it to get the clean sound I want and use my other pedals for boost/overdrive. I also use my Fulltone Trem at the end of my signal. If you turn the blend knob turned way down and use the soft/hard button for the on/off it works well as a signal buffer. I use George L cables for the pedal board and Bayou cables for the guitar to pedals and for the pedal to amp run.
I also use passive loopers for all my pedals. This seems to work well for me. Use the shortest cable run, the best cable, the least amount of pedals, and a good looper and one of the buffer I suggested. This will get most of the way there... but there is nothing better than straight into the amp, if you know that going in, it's easier to deal with the minimal tone loss you're going to get with pedals.

Jimmie B

[mbrown3]

Maybe someone in this thread can help me. Here's what I'm looking for. I have a pedal board with all of my analog pedals on it. I was looking at having Tom build me a true bypass strip. However, that still leaves me with having to switch on and off each pedal for each application. What I'd really like is a way to have the true bypass loops, but then be able to automatically combine them into "patches" that can be stored and called up later depending on the application. Does that make sense? Actually the G-System would (I think) do this fine, but it's gotten some pretty terrible reviews for reliability and is a little pricey. Does the EFX Routing System http://www.musicomlab.co.kr/ do this? Sylvanshine, how has the G-System been for you? Any reliability issues? Any issues at all? Thanks in advance for any help.

[GaryMcT]

One or more Axess GRX4's and an Axess FX1 would do it, but that's an expensive solution. You could replace the FX1 with the Ground Control Pro.

Here's a new solution that might be what you are looking for:

http://www.voodoolab.com/pedal_control.htm

The pedal switcher is basically 4 switched pedals (like the GRX4), but with an instant access switch per pedal. It receives midi program changes from an FX1, Ground Control Pro, etc, but then allows you to tweak which are off and on. The Command is supposed to work with it, but it seems kind of weird that it has so few presets.

One thing that's really good about the GRX4 is the quality of the built-in buffer.

I currently have two GRX4's that I used an Axess MFC5 to switch programs with. I'm also wanting to be able to toggle pedals at will along with the preset functionality. I'm likely to get a Ground Control Pro so that I can get the best of both worlds (along with the 2 GRX4's.)

PS: I'm pretty sure the musicom system does what you want.

[jimmieb]

Maybe someone in this thread can help me. Here's what I'm looking for. I have a pedal board with all of my analog pedals on it. I was looking at having Tom build me a true bypass strip. However, that still leaves me with having to switch on and off each pedal for each application. What I'd really like is a way to have the true bypass loops, but then be able to automatically combine them into "patches" that can be stored and called up later depending on the application. Does that make sense? Actually the G-System would (I think) do this fine, but it's gotten some pretty terrible reviews for reliability and is a little pricey. Does the EFX Routing System http://www.musicomlab.co.kr/ do this? Sylvanshine, how has the G-System been for you? Any reliability issues? Any issues at all? Thanks in advance for any help.

Have you tried a Carl Martin Combinator? You can set up pre sets of pedal combinations. It's like a true Bypass Looper and a midi pedal, Like the Ground Control and the GCX from Digital Music Corp.

Jimmie B

[GaryMcT]

Have you tried a Carl Martin Combinator? You can set up pre sets of pedal combinations. It's like a true Bypass Looper and a midi pedal, Like the Ground Control and the GCX from Digital Music Corp.

Jimmie B

I wouldn't be happy with 18 presets personally. I don't use nearly that many presets for most things, but there are some cover songs that have 3 presets themselves (U2 stuff for instance).

[sylvanshine]

I almost pulled the trigger on the WOBO programable switching system. http://www.true-bypass-loopers.com/ The MFX Prog comes in 8, 10 or 12 presets. They will do a custom floor control that turns amp channels on/off also. It was as much as a G-System and not as clean, so I went G-S.