GC Rant/Editorial - the Homogenizing of an Industry [Archive] - Anderson Guitar Forum

michaelomiya

07-17-2006, 09:36 PM

Ok, so I'm reading through the Elixir thread and wondering, "when's somebody gonna write about what we're all REALLY thinking?"

Thank you Brian Harris!!
http://www.members.cox.net/eddyrox/briansblog.jpg

You nailed it brother.

And for the record, Southern California (Orange County/Los Angeles/SanDiego) has 15 stores, stretching from Oxnard all the way down to San Diego - that represents A LOT of misinformation.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating, "Unmotivated, ambivalent humans posing as music store sales people do nothing for gear sales." Well that's not exactly true, because GC employees do cause unsuspecting, ignorant consumers to acquire crappy equipment, only to get discouraged, and drop music as a hobby. So GC people do have an "effect" on the industry - all negative. Of course, this is just MY experience. :D

How's that for a marketing strategy?!:eek: :mad:

Rather than working w/ a customer, and providing them w/ the appropriate instruments and knowledge, conmmensurate w/ their level of playing, GC mass markets their crap to everyone and anyone who's ever dared to pose in front of a mirror. I'm sure this works well if you're only planning to sell something 1 time.

But what about repeat business? What IF the customer had such a positive experience buying and playing that they come back again? Hmmm....what a concept.

I know the experience of spec'ing out an Anderson is why I've been an Anderson-homer for over 10 years. It's fun - straight up FUN. Fun talking to Brian, a blast calling Roy, dealing w/ tom, Rachel, Bruce, Jessie, Chuck, Charles, et.al..

GC? Now that's the polar opposite of TAG. In fact they represent everything that TAG IS NOT. When I think of GC, I think "non-substantive, non-credible, used, beat upon, shady, untrustworthy", all of the terms that any reputable retailer "strives" to achieve w/ their customer base. Right.

And that's NOT because they are what we in the real estate industry refer to as "big box, category killers". Companies like Costco, and to a lesser degree Wal-mart, do epitomize what a "big box" store COULD be. However, it's evident (to me) that GC does not care about it's "customers".

Either way, it's a shame that smaller "mom/pop" stores are being bullied out of the industry. However, as long as I'm walking on this earth, none of my $'s will be coughed up to publicly-held ("music retailer") corporations like GC.

RANT OFF.

sylvanshine

07-17-2006, 10:55 PM

What is MOST fascinating to me though is the economics of it all. Are there stats to back up that opening a new store creates new players? Is there a kid in a bedroom in Your Town USA that didn't want to play guitar when the store was 10 miles away? Now that it is 5 miles away it sounds cool? How thin would you like your slice of pie, sir?

Everybody uses toliet paper. That's why Wal-Mart, Sam's Club and Costco work. Not everyone plays guitar. The economy of scale is different. At some point even the pinheads in Westlake Village, CA will realize that they have reached saturation. The market ALWAYS wins.

olectric

07-17-2006, 11:43 PM

nice blog, brian!

Either way, it's a shame that smaller "mom/pop" stores are being bullied out of the industry. However, as long as I'm walking on this earth, none of my $'s will be coughed up to publicly-held ("music retailer") corporations like GC.

+1. this is about the only reason i use a GC:

any music store that by default requires the use of earplugs just to walk into is something to be avoided at all costs. however, sometimes i really want to try out something that i know they have in stock. since they're close (< 3mi), i'll bear the cacophony that never fails to assault my ears upon entering to check out this piece of gear i'm curious about. if i like it and want to buy it, i'll choose to support one of these stores instead:

Mass. Street Music (http://www.massstreetmusic.com/),
Indoor Storm (http://www.indoorstorm.com/), or
Charley's Guitar (http://www.charleysguitar.com/).

John and Grant at Mass. Street, Dave and Eddie at Indoor Storm, and Brian at Charley's are all incredibly helpful, knowledgeable, and have lots of great stuff. when i lived in KS, i spent quite a bit of time at Mass. Street, but i've only dealt with Indoor Storm and Charley's once each. doesn't it say something about the way these guys conduct business that i remember the names of the gentlemen whom i spoke to on the phone and placed an order with? these guys are a far cry from the kid behind the counter at GC who thinks a comp pedal "is for when you want composition" (right, Corey?). GC will only see my $$ when i need a pack of strings and nothing else is near and open.

bjwarshawII

07-18-2006, 06:20 AM

Indoor Storm began as The Music Loft (it's probably still connected) in NC. I've actually been to the one in Raleigh, and I can tell you that it's a first-rate outfit. They were situated directly across the street from Mars, and they were killing the superstore. They had better gear, a better atmosphere, and (obviously) sales staff that knew what they were talking about.

I feel all of your pain, though. Guitar Center uses a very Wal-Martian business model: let the merchandise sell itself. They, like Wal-Mart, care nothing for specialized employees that can give genuine assistance. They only care about moving as much crappy inventory as possible.

I've been to a GC once or twice, and I was very put off by the inability of the staff. One family visiting the store ended up asking me to help explain a particular issue to them, and I was just shopping/looking around like they were!

Sixx

07-18-2006, 09:20 AM

The only thing I have used GC for lately is the 30 day test period to figure out if I like something. I didn't always buy with that intention, just worked out that way. They will probably ban me for excessive returns.

taclassic

07-18-2006, 10:27 AM

I have also been asked for help in a GC store. I see folks asking the reps questions, but they get odd answers so they look for someone who knows something about gear. A few times I have been asked for help by the kids or parents of kids looking for gear.

My worst experience at GC was when I asked what the third knob on a PRS was for (aka the pick up selector switch). The rep told me it was a second volume knob. Whoa!!!!!!

guitarzan

07-18-2006, 11:19 AM

A good friend of mine is an Operations Mgr. at a local GC. He has no delusions about the company. They're the juggernaut that puts ma n' pa out of business. But I'm hesitant to rip on the company as a whole just because it seeks to be more profitable. Profit at the cost of music's future is heartbreaking, for sure, and some pimple-faced sales monkey pointing out that the "COMP" button on a digital amplifier is the "Composition" button is the portrait of ignorance (yes, it really happened). But it's hard for me to crucify GC when it's just trying to be more and more successful in a capitalist economy. They wouldn't open up 150 stores nationwide (and a new one every month) if they weren't profitable enough to do so. (My buddy tells me that GC's budget for Christmas marketing alone is bigger than what Sam Ash turns in a year's worth of profits.) Maybe I'm rambling, and I love to support the ma n' pa stores (like rockit music (http://www.rockitmusic.com) here in Brea, CA), but GC is good for some things. And knowing a really GOOD, caring guy on the inside of that juggernaut makes it tough for me to make blanket statements.

pluto

07-18-2006, 05:50 PM

I take offense to this post since I work at Guitar Center as a sales associate. Mike, don't you have better things to do? :D

jeepster

07-18-2006, 09:25 PM

GC's always been good to me.

As far as knowledge - how can anyone be familiar with the thousands of products out there? Even among us "experts" on the forums there are a multitude of opinions on every matter - large or small.

Shoot, I couldn't explain the operations of many of the new guitars and amps on the floor....and I've been teaching guitar for 40 some years.

At the Mom and Pop I used to teach at I had to order and pre-pay for a guitar if I wanted a particular model. No choice as to tone, flame, feel, "mojo" , whatever. Walk into a GC and there's dozens of any model to choose from.

Plus - they provide cash flow for the manufacturers to stay alive.

Go easy on them - in many cases that's our kids working there...My only choice at 16 was McDonalds. Or the newspaper.

michaelomiya

07-18-2006, 10:47 PM

I take offense to this post since I work at Guitar Center as a sales associate. Mike, don't you have better things to do? :D

watch out Honolulu, the GC steam roller's invaded the shores of Waikiki! :D

michaelomiya

07-18-2006, 10:54 PM

Maybe I'm rambling, and I love to support the ma n' pa stores (like rockit music (http://www.rockitmusic.com) here in Brea, CA), but GC is good for some things.

rock on Ian!

And knowing a really GOOD, caring guy on the inside of that juggernaut makes it tough for me to make blanket statements.

Sweeping generalizations are definitely not something that I enjoy doing. And I apologize if it came out that way. I just want to see the guys who really love what they do come out on top. And to have the fortitude to open your own music store, selling gear that you believe in, or that you know fits your customers' needs....well that's just my "fantasy" I guess.... :rolleyes: ;) ..sure is nice to dream.... :p

olectric

07-19-2006, 12:00 AM

As far as knowledge - how can anyone be familiar with the thousands of products out there? Even among us "experts" on the forums there are a multitude of opinions on every matter - large or small.

Shoot, I couldn't explain the operations of many of the new guitars and amps on the floor....and I've been teaching guitar for 40 some years.

i have to respectfully disagree here. if it is your job to sell the product, you need to know about it. at least a little bit. at least be familiar with how compressors work and what tubes do (besides light up) in the back of an amp. i don't know all the specs on every single piece of gear that GC carries, but it's also not my job to sell it. i honestly wouldn't mind it as much if the salespeople didn't just make stuff up on the spot to try to get it in my hands and out the door. a simple "hmm...not sure, let's look it up" would be great, but it seems in my experience (and i've only been to three or four GCs) that they just don't care. and it's not just the kids or younger guys. most of the guys i've dealt with at GC were over 40. please keep in mind that this is all in my experience, and i know that there are good and knowledgeable people who make a living working at GC. it's just that my experience has led me to believe that they are VERY rare.

guitarzan

07-19-2006, 12:07 AM

Olectric, I have to absolutely agree with you. i don't care if it's strats, soap, or jesus- I don't wanna be "sold" just for the sake of being sold. If a guy's gonna sell amps, learn the 5 brands that GC sells and be able offer real help to those looking to solve their gear problems. That's what sales is all about, IMHO.

michaelomiya

07-19-2006, 01:23 AM

i have to respectfully disagree here. if it is your job to sell the product, you need to know about it. at least a little bit. ...but it seems in my experience (and i've only been to three or four GCs) that they just don't care. and it's not just the kids or younger guys. most of the guys i've dealt with at GC were over 40. please keep in mind that this is all in my experience...it's just that my experience has led me to believe that they are VERY rare.

OUR experiences are VERY similar (and I'll venture to guess others have had the same experience as well). Well put.

dannopelli

07-19-2006, 12:32 PM

I would totally agree that you should know, or know how to get the info, on all the intracies of your job.

That said, we should take into account what you are getting at a GC type store. They are the fast food of music sales. You don't ask at the Mc Burger shop, "Waiter, how is that Chicken Cordon Whopper Mc Nugget sandwhich prepared?" You just kind of know what you are getting.

My point is manage your expectations.

I never shop at a GC or the like because part of the sale for me is the experience of learning from Dave, my guy at Richmond Music. But now that I live in Philly, 257 miles from Dave, if I need strings or a guitar stand or such, I may have to go to GC.

When I need gear I drive 257 miles.

I am sure ALL of us on this forum have a shop closer than that.

olectric

07-19-2006, 12:48 PM

I would totally agree that you should know, or know how to get the info, on all the intracies of your job.

That said, we should take into account what you are getting at a GC type store. They are the fast food of music sales. You don't ask at the Mc Burger shop, "Waiter, how is that Chicken Cordon Whopper Mc Nugget sandwhich prepared?" You just kind of know what you are getting.

My point is manage your expectations.

good point. however, i still think we should have much higher expectations at GC than at McWendyKing Bell because while we can only spend about $7-10 on a meal at a fast food joint, we could easily max out a credit card or empty a savings account at GC...on one or two pieces of gear. i expect a LOT more out of a guy who asks, "would you like to purchase a warranty or any accessories to go with your new R9?" than a guy who asks, "would you like fries with that?" i understand what you're saying; i just don't think my expectations are out of line.

Janine Doubly

07-19-2006, 01:42 PM

I respectfully and honestly appreciate what everybody is saying here. But let me throw a small, but hopefully not damaging wrench into this discussion. Yes, GC has the marketing info to back up what they do. They woudn't be as cavalier about their strategies if they didn't wholeheartedly believe that they can do what they do. It is a shame that this is the environment we live (and work) in and painfully, yes, there are kids who would NOT have bought a guitar until GC showed up in their neighborhood. So...coming from someone who still works in a m-n-p store, its frustrating to have to do all the set ups and repairs on the guitars purchased at GC (the bridge pulling up on a Squier Strat is the most common) while the customer says "thank you" walks out the store and doesn't think twice about how we saved their kid's butt. Should I get bitter? Well, its human to want to, but....its the bitter and arrogant attitudes that some, not all, but some m-n-p stores have when the "uneducated" customer walks that has soured many folks on the m-n-p stores. I am certainly guilty of treating customers this way.

To me, the only thing that will curb the GC onslaught, is love and knowledge. I have to remind myself everyday of this when I watch a customer walk out the door to go buy a guitar at GC because I couldn't convince the customer that the info they got at GC was wrong and I am right!

dannopelli

07-19-2006, 02:47 PM

olectric: Excellent point. Did not consider that angle. Probably becasue my point of reference is I have never spent more than $50 at a GC.

Janine Doubly: Another good point. As far as I can tell many of the smaller stores, other than the complete "boutique shops", carry a few "Strat Packs." So parent goes to GC, saves $25 or less vs buying at the local shop, then puts $50 into getting it fixed right. Then goes back to GC to buy more stuff.

Or better, guy buys $2300 CS Strat at GC, neck all twisted up, gets it set up at GC, still all twisted up, then brings it to you. You make it right, as it should be. And where does he plunk down the next $2300? God that must be frustrating.

I stand humbled and corrected in all y'all's sight.

michaelomiya

07-19-2006, 04:06 PM

gwe could easily max out a credit card or empty a savings account at GC...on one or two pieces of gear. i expect a LOT more out of a guy who asks, "would you like to purchase a warranty or any accessories to go with your new R9?" ...i just don't think my expectations are out of line.

+1000. And I hope NO ONE on this site's acquiring an R9 from GC. Man, what a nightmare that could turn out to be. :eek: (especially given the high probability that the rep and the store's buyer cherry-picked the "choice" LP's from the shipment as it arrived, leaving the marginal RI's for the floor)

dpeterson

07-20-2006, 09:08 AM

Should I get bitter? Well, its human to want to, but....its the bitter and arrogant attitudes that some, not all, but some m-n-p stores have when the "uneducated" customer walks that has soured many folks on the m-n-p stores. I am certainly guilty of treating customers this way.

To me, the only thing that will curb the GC onslaught, is love and knowledge. I have to remind myself everyday of this when I watch a customer walk out the door to go buy a guitar at GC because I couldn't convince the customer that the info they got at GC was wrong and I am right!

The biggest problem i've seen at ma and pops is that they tend to talk down about gc and their gear..."our ibanez rg550 is much better than the gc one".
This strategy is bad, and will make the people go to gc out of curriosity. just like in a job interview, you NEVER talk down about your previous employer.

I've watched a small store try to make a customer feel bad for going to gc, talking very condescendingly towards the person, and it made me feel uncomfortable just hearing the way they were talked to.. imagine how the person felt.

I worked at gc in Covina CA, for 2 years as accessories manager, and i worked for a 3 years back here in Ohio at a small store, so i've seen both sides. Attitudes and sales tactics have to change if they want to survive, just look what walmart does to those small stores when they hit a town.

We are all whores and want stuff now and as cheap as possible. will i go to gc if i can save a few bux on some strings? you betcha...

dave

jeepster

07-20-2006, 10:15 AM

michaelomiya

07-20-2006, 02:52 PM

Suriel Zayas

07-20-2006, 04:14 PM

AMS

ams is owned by what was a small mom & pop store in new jersey, victor's house of music. although ams is their internet/catalog division, they keep a pretty mixed in-store inventory (entry level-to-some boutique), and some pretty knowledgable sales guys. specifically in the guitar department, their 2 main guys have been there 15+ years.

michaelomiya

07-20-2006, 05:35 PM

ams is owned by what was a small mom & pop store in new jersey, victor's house of music. although ams is their internet/catalog division, they keep a pretty mixed in-store inventory (entry level-to-some boutique), and some pretty knowledgable sales guys. specifically in the guitar department, their 2 main guys have been there 15+ years.

I knew that I liked AMS! (bought several pedals from them over the years - w/ positive experiences everytime) :p

BrianH

07-22-2006, 01:39 PM

I wonder why GC is always singled out as the end of the mom and pops?

I would think the advent of internet sales and ebay has more to do with it than GC.

How many sales are now done over the internet? And - how often is a lower price negotiated at the mom and pop using an internet figure as a reference point?

Ebay has taken the used market away from the small vendors.

We complain about the lack of pre/after sale support....how much support exists for an instrument purchased on-line....

Being a smaller independent (I've always hated the term "mom and pop") we feel more effects from Ebay than from internet sales, but GC is doing more to drive the price of used gear in the direction that they want by 'using' Ebay.

GC has no fear of Ebay and they are doing everything possible to muddy those Ebay-good deal waters (i.e., have you looked at how many auctions GC has on Ebay?
Have you checked those insane prices?
Do you think they might be trying to drive up used guitar values?)
From where I stand that's a bad thing.

As for pre/after sale support - there is no descent support for on-line that I'm aware of (as there is little suport at a GC - they don't have a repair department do they? Qualified staff to handle trouble shooting?).

At our shop we deal with this problem everyday (their problem).
We are constantly taking in repair jobs from on-line deals gone bad and I can't count the "I just bought this at Guitar Center and I don't think it's working right - can you fix it so I can play it for 29 days, then return it for my money back".
You think I'm kidding - I'm not, and I can bet you that every other independent out there knows what I'm talking about when we start to get into the GC return policy.

Internet, on-line and Ebay do suck the life out of the smaller guy - but having GC around, controlling all the above makes it a lot worse.

Hoyt

07-22-2006, 10:32 PM

Hi Brian .... Quick correction. I think you are confusing AMS with AMG. AMG is American Music Group which was purchased by GC. When GC purchased Music & Arts, AMG was absorbed into Music & Arts. AMS is owned by Victors, not GC. The only GC owned web sites are MF & GC.

BrianH

07-23-2006, 09:26 AM

AMG - in upstate New York - you are correct sir.
I was too busy ranting and raving.

Woodash

07-23-2006, 10:51 AM

GC has no fear of Ebay and they are doing everything possible to muddy those Ebay-good deal waters (i.e., have you looked at how many auctions GC has on Ebay?
Have you checked those insane prices?
Do you think they might be trying to drive up used guitar values?)
From where I stand that's a bad thing.
Exactly. The GC auctions are laughable. A while ago, I walked into GC and saw a Tweed Pro Reverb in kind of half-assed shape, without original parts, sitting on the floor with an asking price of ~$4,000+. Salesman, of course, comes right over after noticing my interest (or rather, curiosity...) and begins the hype. And they don't want to hear anything about overinflated asking price, or non-original speaker and trannies.

I've also walked out of a GC before when the clerk would not let me pay for something using a credit card without my providing my address and phone number. I don't think so.....

So - to heck with them. I guess I just don't do business with ridiculous people.

BrianH

07-23-2006, 12:52 PM

So - to heck with them. I guess I just don't do business with ridiculous people.

And you shouldn't have to.

olectric

07-23-2006, 02:14 PM

I've also walked out of a GC before when the clerk would not let me pay for something using a credit card without my providing my address and phone number. I don't think so.....

So - to heck with them. I guess I just don't do business with ridiculous people.

I bought two packs of strings there the other day, and the cashier asked me the same thing. I said, "you don't need that." He shrugged and let me buy the strings. Maybe he let me get by because it was a $7 transaction.

Sir Ricardo

07-23-2006, 05:30 PM

....I would take the opposite side of the argument.

It would appear to me that the range of gear, both in terms of price and quality, that you can get at Guitar Center has never been equalled.

Thus, the consumer has more choices than ever before. Certainly far more choices than when the "mom and pop" stores reigned (there is a funny thing about the "good old days"....in many many cases, they weren't that good to begin with, it's just a trick our minds play on us).

The main gripe, though, that I see as I read through this post, is that the GC reps have poor product knowledge. And to that, I would respond in two ways.

1) it is true, many/most of them have very sketchy knowledge about what they are selling. On the other hand, some of them, maybe not a lot of them, but some of them actually do have a fair amount of knowledge. But I will grant you, not very many of them!

2) Since I know that most of the reps don't know much, I don't worry about it, and I certainly don't count on getting my questions answered by them. It's all a matter of expectations. Mine are low, thus they usually are met.

As far as the ability of mom-pop stores to compete, at least where I live (SF Bay Area), the ones that actually offer some real value do just fine. What is real value? For example, a great stock of vintage gear (Real Guitars, E-Guitars). Or great luthier skills (Gary Brawer, Steven White). Or high-end gear combined with deep product knowledge (Gelb Music). Etc/etc/etc.

What you don't see are crummy stores that simply stock stuff, put it on the shelf, take 10% off list, and then hope for the best. It's too competitive to have that mentality, and I for one don't miss that strategy in the least!

So I say "Go Guitar Center!", as they have brought prices down throughout the industry, and made their niche competitors 1) really figure out who their target market is, and 2) determine exactly how to deliver the products/services their consumers demand.

Now that's capitalism!

Cheers -

Richard
===================================

ps: as a related topic, one might think about the vastly better price/performance ratio that exists now, versus 20-30 years ago, as it pertains to entry-level and mid-level guitars. Not that long ago, you had to pay a relatively nice sum to get a rather mediocre guitar. Then, with the advent of the mass-producing Asian guitar manufacturers, prices have been falling, and quality has gotten higher and higher. Ask Tom A himself about this phenomenon, I believe I have seen his statements to this effect, how the overall level of quality has risen a tremendous amount, and the prices have fallen.

Now, what does this have to do with Guitar Center? Well, the linchpin of the Asian manufacturing strategy is wide distribution, combined with high volume. There is simply no way that the Asian guitar phenomenon could have been as successful, without the likes of the guitar superstores, of which Guitar Center is one.

Right now, we are awash in decent gear designed for the entry-level and mid-level consumer. We all know that the Asian folks are to thank for this, but let's not leave out the distribution/retailing component. Let's give thanks where thanks is due....

michaelomiya

07-23-2006, 05:42 PM

A while ago, I walked into GC and saw a Tweed Pro Reverb in kind of half-assed shape, without original parts, sitting on the floor with an asking price of ~$4,000+. Salesman, of course, comes right over after noticing my interest (or rather, curiosity...) and begins the hype. And they don't want to hear anything about overinflated asking price, or non-original speaker and trannies.

GC sales people would be considered "mensa card carrying members" if they could explain the difference between a BF Fender and a RI, or explain what "Jensen" means. I've walked into several of the GC's that "carry" the "vintage" amps (in my case Marshalls), and not one sales person could tell me anything that would indicate they knew the first thing about a Marshall, let alone the difference between a 1959SL, post-75 MV 2203, or vertical input JCM800. Again, they're in the business of "shlepping" crappy gear to whoever's willing to tolerate their ignorance.

michaelomiya

07-23-2006, 06:00 PM

.Thus, the consumer has more choices than ever before. Certainly far more choices than when the "mom and pop" stores reigned (there is a funny thing about the "good old days"....in many many cases, they weren't that good to begin with, it's just a trick our minds play on us)...as far as the ability of mom-pop stores to compete, at least where I live (SF Bay Area), the ones that actually offer some real value do just fine. What is real value? For example, a great stock of vintage gear (Real Guitars, E-Guitars). Or great luthier skills (Gary Brawer, Steven White). Or high-end gear combined with deep product knowledge (Gelb Music). Etc/etc/etc.

I think you're missing the point, which is that GC, through its "precision" (aka mindless) target marketing, is eliminating the MnP retailers, the very ones who stock our favorite guitars. Are you "sure" that the stores you mentioned are "doing fine"? Existence may not equate to "success" (where "success" is defined as being able to achieve at least the average HH per capita in the given area). And while GC may have forced competitors to reconsider their core customer base, the ability to transfer knowledge and interface w/ customers is becoming a lost art. GC will soon come to realize that offering cutthroat prices on crappy gear (along w/ a Nordstrom return policy) will only work for so long.

Sir Ricardo

07-23-2006, 06:40 PM

Hello Michael:

The reason I say the specialty stores are "doing fine" is because every time I visit these stores, they are bustling. Granted, this is anecdotal, and as I mention below, some of these stores have already left the market.

If I misunderstood the core point (I thought it was a gripe about poor product knowledge), then I stand corrected. However, if the core point is that by eliminating the MnPops, this somehow leads to less choice in the upper end of the market, at least for most consumers, I couldn't agree with that!

In fact, GC, at least the ones around here, stock Gibsons, Custom shop Fenders, PRSs, and the odd cool bird. And given their high volume purchasing, they offer lower prices than a non-high-volume store. So on the price front, that's a real bonus.

As far as all the other high-end guitars (Andersons, Suhrs, etc/etc), they are distributed via specialty stores. These specialty stores, at least all the ones I've visited, and I've visited more than a few, have a good selection, and great product knowledge. And again, from the floor traffic I've noticed, they seem to be "doing fine."

The stores that have lost/are losing are the stores that don't or can't offer a well-differentiated product mix from that of Guitar Center, if they are competing in a market with a GC. For a small store to prosper, they need to do one of two things: 1) offer items that are different than those GC offers, or 2) exist in a market where the GCs of the world don't exist, which usually means a geographically small market.

In some markets around the US, stores that in the past carried both high-end gear, and the mass-market stuff, have had to leave the industry. Why? Because their geographic market was too small to support an exclusively high-end niche store, and their mass-market base was competed away by Guitar Center. So for those stores, and their high-end customers, this is a loss.

I never meant to imply that no one loses when an industry changes like this, rather, I was just highlighting all the tremendous benefits that occur, to the vast majority of industry participants.

Best -

Richard

PaulS

07-23-2006, 06:52 PM

I think GC is great. Seems like not a popular view here but during the time I lived in LA that's where I shopped.

I played keyboards then and they pretty much had all of the synths I was interested in and the 30 day return policy was terrific! Most of the sales guys knew the basics and I was always treated fairly. If I was a young, hungry musician and needed a job I would have worked there.

When I went in I always knew what I wanted so didn't need to ask endless questions and knew I could get my 35%-40% discount. There was always a mixture of smart, bright guys and the slower, take-it-easy sort...it always worked out:-)

The selection was great, price was very competative and the return policy made buying a stress-free thing.

Maybe keys are different than guitars but I don't think so - not really. You need a bigger selection of guitars to find 'the' one where-as keys all sound the same given the same model....GC has a large selection to 'run the racks'.

I'm sure there are horror stories many can tell but for me I've easily spent $20,000-$30,000 on keys at GC a few years back and never once had anything but a good shopping experience.

While some of the smaller shops around LA were fine, they never had the selection and discounts I could get at GC....and yes, they were a little more informed (not always by very much) but I always knew what I went in there to buy. I was an informed shopper.

billyguitar

07-23-2006, 09:43 PM

Guitar Center doesn't bother me. If they stock what I want, and I'm pretty sure the smalls don't have it, then I buy from GC. If they didn't get into the 'big business' niche then some other company would. There's no stopping them so there's no point in even thinking about it. If they had a vintage piece I wanted, and it was fairly priced, then I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. What I see on Ebay shows me they overprice stuff to the point that I'm surprised anyone buys it, but then again, Ebay is one weird place.

michaelomiya

07-24-2006, 02:04 AM

In fact, GC, at least the ones around here, stock Gibsons, Custom shop Fenders, PRSs, and the odd cool bird. And given their high volume purchasing, they offer lower prices than a non-high-volume store. So on the price front, that's a real bonus.

Hi Richard, the GC's down here stock the same merchandise as the NoCal locations. But once again, I don't know of one person who would "risk" their $'s in acquiring any "high-end" gear from GC, especially given the rack bludgeoning those pieces get from the general public.

However, if the core point is that by eliminating the MnPops, this somehow leads to less choice in the upper end of the market, at least for most consumers, I couldn't agree with that!

I too have frequented (and purchased gear from) waaay too many MnP retailers to mention. And, yes, one of my assertions is that the reduction of the "specialty" retailers (AKA the mom and pop stores) will indeed reduce the selection of products.

Why? Because in a business like GC's, the more homogeneous the product, the better - easier consumption, quicker inventory turns, etc..

The worst outcome of this lies in the corporation's potential to "dictate" to the manufacturer what will and what will not sell "in their stores".

Look at GC's "stable" of providers - Line6, Crate, Roland/Boss, PRS, Gibson, Fender, Yamaha, now Boogie (after years of siding w/ Hartley Peavey, Randy acquiesced - Jimbo and John in the M/B Hollywood store couldn't be more PO'd). With the exception of M/B, none of these companies represent anything remotely related to music. Henry Juszkiewicz and his lawsuits, Fender and their lawsuits, Line6/Crate raising the bar on bad tone....but what they do have in common is their endless pursuit of increasing sales. And how do you increase margins? Produce 'em cheaper, make 'em faster and distribute them in the most efficient fashion.

Of course all of these "strategies" benefit the consumer. Longevity and QC are addressed through an abbreviated R&D process and overseas production, and we get something right out of NAMM w/in 3 mos of it's debut (thanks to the manufacturers' alignment w/ GC). Right.

The reality is that these crappy products, made to look like amps and guitars (but sound like A$$), have built-in obsolescence periods to guarantee the masses continue to patronize stores like GC.

There's a reason that Anderson, Suhr, Peavey and others do not have contracts w/ GC. An acute inability to properly market and represent products is only part of the rationale. The other reason, IMHO, is that the cost of enduring GC's treatment of the smaller manufacturer, and the "policies" related to placing such a product in their stores, is too high relative to the marginal benefit of accessing a wider "customer" base.

I'm not arguing for or against patronizing GC. Personally I do not. But what I am saying is that GC's business model needs to be exposed for what it is - sales, and strictly sales. And sales at the expense of being personable w/ your clients/customers, knowledgeable about the products you are selling, and respectful of the business partnerships created between manufacturer, distributer, and retailer. And the greatest crime to the "informed" consumer, is not offering enough diversity to address the needs of the discriminating buyer.

jimmieb

07-24-2006, 04:33 PM

Though it goes against my grain... I believe there is a market for mediocre products and marginally bad tone. In my years of talking tone and trying to communicate my preferences I have found more people who disagree with me than agree. Some folks out of ignorance, some tone deaf, many just don't hear like I do. If they like to buy Line 6 amps or Ibanez guitars, or anything I believe to be "Lo-Fi", I say let them. If they want to buy from dishonest dealers who have chosen a less than honorable path, Let them. I can't change thier minds, I can warn them, but that's all. For me there are enough good folks out there, like you good folks on this Forum, to maintain a higher standard of conduct and practices. These are who I align myself with and who I buy from. It's a shame that GC and the greed of people like that are pulling down an industry. It's certainly not the only industry that greed is pulling down. They are not us and we can simlpy not support them. I say let them be there as measuring stick of what not to do. If they get rich who cares, they can have their ill-gotten money. Some people would think I'm nutts to spend a few dollars extra from my favorite dealer. Loyalty, sometimes costs you more. I say let others buy guitars that are dented, fingerprinted, overhyped, mediocre, and keep the Tom Anderson's, John Suhr's and Alf Hermida's busy enough to supply those who know and appreciate the difference. Even if it cost more to support these guys. I'd never tell Tom, John or Alf, but their gear is a great value considering what your getting. I take it back I did tell Alf to raise his price on the Zen once. (People were/are buying Zen Drives for $150 from Alf and selling them for $300 to $400 on E-bay, now that's a frigging crime, Alf desrves that money). Heck, I'd pay $20 extra for a Zen just to have conversation with Alf, or have laugh with Roy, why not! Now that's real value!!

Jimmie B

PS Greed is what happens ultimately to capitalism when broken people are involved. Greed! That's the real issue here. It's not all CG's fault, they are merely the icon/amalgam of our frustration. Not only is GC greedy, but so are we at some level!!! So it seems the whole world is becoming that way. So we try to make them the poster child of all the wrongs we all perpetrate. All I know is what I can do, not what you or GC should do...

Sixx

07-24-2006, 11:07 PM

Guitar Center = Great Prices??? I think not. When GC first began their campaign to expand nationally, they did what your typical big box retailer will do: Lower prices. Many of the Mom & Pops of the time were pricing stuff to high. However, as most large retailers do, GC raised their prices after they had successfully gained traction in the marketplace. Once you have killed the category, you control the market.

Fortunately for us, the Internet has helped change things. Dealers with a good web presence can compete. Word of mouth about good dealers is spread via forums etc.

Let's leave Andys and the other "boutiques" out of the comparison. Shop around for a nice Gibson or PRS. Go to GC and get their price. I can rattle of numerous Mom & Pops/Internet dealers who will beat the GC price by $500 or more. In addition to price, what about selection? GC is probably the largest Fender/Jackson dealer in the country, yet when it comes to finding a USA Jackson with a graphic, they have none.

I am not a fan.

jeepster

07-25-2006, 09:11 AM

I can rattle of numerous Mom & Pops/Internet dealers who will beat the GC price by $500 or more.

Exactly my point about the Internet being the end of the mom and pops.

Suppose you're a local dealer who just had to commit to 100k of Gibbys et al to keep your franchise. Most will be "pedestrian" guitars - not monster tops. And of course - everyone is quoting the deal they can get online to negotiate the best price.

Bricks and Mortar cost money - so - to move them - you eat up your GP.

Consignments have been replaced by guitar shows and Ebay....so that income is essentially gone.

Basically you're left with second/third tier products, lessons, books, rentals, service and strings. Can you reasonably sell enough to stay alive?

How happy are you with internet sales now?

The guitar shop landscape has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.

Shops that don't move with the market (most) are simply gone.

Even my favorite "boutique" dealer (MakenMusic) changed hands recently - after first closing some locations. In my mind they were the ultimate mom and pop.....

GC simply is filling the "local" void created by the internet.

Sixx

07-25-2006, 11:23 AM

I consider most of the Internet dealers to more similar to Mom and Pop stores than to GC. In fact most Mom and Pop stores that I know have their own web sites and display their inventory on line.

When I was I recently back in Atlanta, my brother and I were looking at PRSs. We went to two M&P stores and found the prices on Custom 24s and Single Cuts to be $300 to $600 cheaper than GC. These were both traditional bricks and mortar stores that both have a web presence.

The merchandise was pristine at the M&Ps too. The GC stuff was often gamey with dings etc. In some cases it was awful.

jimmieb

07-25-2006, 01:51 PM

GC jumped on the I-Net band wagon after many M & P began switching over. Like most CG changes they move like a pregnant elephant and their I-Net marketing is only now begining to be a valid contender. The GC EBay is a joke, who buys those guitars, nobody. GC tried to do the same thing with a paper called The Recycler once, it died. Once the elephant establishes itself though look out, it's hostile take over time.
The other aspect of capitalism is survival of the fittist. Many M&P company either didn't see the I-net writting on the wall or ignored it and died because they didn't evolve or they wanted to be safe. There were many M & P's that really were resting on a system or store paradime that worked in the Golden 1980's thru the 90's, when you could not keep great guitars on the wall. They got lazy or wanted to stay safe. The smart M & P went to I-net as well as the store. To clarify M&P are different to me than boutique type stores, although some are a mix of both.
To me GC is not even an environment I live in. Sure I'll buy some strings there in a pinch, but I don't spend any money there. It's as though we expect the elephant (GC) to be something it's not. It's a money grabbing corporation. I just don't believe that GC will ever have the piece of the pie where we make our purchases. Let the gear companies market their lo-fi junk for a GC market and we can have the great service, great guitars, and great tone and buy from the great dealer we know and love. There are still many great dealers who are doing it right and are making money. Not necessarily getting rich, but when has this business been a get rich endeavor.
Do what I do. I go to GC on a Saturday and help my newly made friends (GC salesguys) close their deal. I strike up conversations with customers, I educate their customers by adding information and advice that's true and honest. It's all very diplomatic and unassuming. The customers gets the right advice and the salespeolple see what an honest, informed sales aproach can deliver. I get to plunck CG's guitars, talk about what I like most, and educate a few fine people... and it's great fun...

Jimmie B

Dave M.

07-25-2006, 11:49 PM

...There's a reason that Anderson, Suhr, Peavey and others do not have contracts w/ GC. An acute inability to properly market and represent products is only part of the rationale. ...

Funny thing from a few years ago. There is a GC in the southern Seattle area that carried TAGs for a while. Turns out there was one guy that was the salesguy to talk to. I found this out from speaking with another sales guy there -- one whom I've done business with since that store was a MF, and who knows his stuff and treats people properly. anyway, I speak to the TAG sales guy, who immediately turns on the sales-guy BS, then attempts to impress me into a sale not by offering the guitar to me to play, but by pluggin the thing into a Line 6 combo with over the top chorus/delay/verb and wanks and shreds.
This guy was not a kid, and has made the local rounds at other retailers. A lot of those TAGs hung on the wall a long time. What a shame.

OTOH, I know that I can always go into the Seattle (Westlake) GC and get a killer deal on picks. The guy there told me so, and who could pass that up? ;)

GaryMcT

07-26-2006, 01:25 AM

Funny thing from a few years ago. There is a GC in the southern Seattle area that carried TAGs for a while. Turns out there was one guy that was the salesguy to talk to. I found this out from speaking with another sales guy there -- one whom I've done business with since that store was a MF, and who knows his stuff and treats people properly. anyway, I speak to the TAG sales guy, who immediately turns on the sales-guy BS, then attempts to impress me into a sale not by offering the guitar to me to play, but by pluggin the thing into a Line 6 combo with over the top chorus/delay/verb and wanks and shreds.
This guy was not a kid, and has made the local rounds at other retailers. A lot of those TAGs hung on the wall a long time. What a shame.

OTOH, I know that I can always go into the Seattle (Westlake) GC and get a killer deal on picks. The guy there told me so, and who could pass that up? ;)

I am VERY glad to have mom and pop local TAG dealer over here on the east side of Seattle. It would frighten me to see TAGs at the local Guitar Center because I know they wouldn't be taken care of.

The only time I ever go to Guitar Center is if there is an instructional book since they carry a lot of that sort of stuff, or I can't find what I want elsewhere and don't want to wait to order it through a mom and pop shop or online.

michaelomiya

07-26-2006, 01:35 AM

OTOH, I know that I can always go into the Seattle (Westlake) GC and get a killer deal on picks. The guy there told me so, and who could pass that up? ;)

too funny!! :p

Dave M.

07-26-2006, 01:26 PM

too funny!! :p

Yeah, it was. Especially because of the timing. On the way to the store I was telling my nephew, who had never been to a GC before, about some of the stereotypical "behavior" of many GC sales droids, etc.

Less than five minutes later the pick deal was broached. My nephew cracked up. :D

Tremendo

07-27-2006, 01:42 AM

I actually did GC today to get a new 4x12 cabinet for my Mark III (Marshall 1960AHW). Of all the places in town, I knew they had a couple options and different cabinets to listen to, along the lines of what I wanted. They even had an Anderson I could play through, since I know the tone. This wasn't the cabinet I had on my list of 6 options, but they had it, I heard it, and I'm happy I got it. I negotiated a better price than they had listed, and the guy was pretty knowledgable, but actually smart enough to know when to stop and say that I probably knew more. All in all, a good experience today, they took over a grand of my cash, all good.