what are your desires for piezo and midi options?

[tom]

with the fishman bridge becoming a thing of the past, we are investigating the alternatives. they are the baggs x bridge which we used to use with it's control x circut, the graphtech ghost with it's circut and midi capability, and the rmc system also with potential for midi. the prices vary greatly, what is important to you, and what is it worth?

[sylvanshine]

I spent time studying all 3 online. Personally, I use the Fishman for acoustic sounds only, no MIDI, so I'm judging based soley on my needs.

Ghost
PROS- lots of options, the dark switch/pull pot sounds interesting, on paper sounds like they might have the most realistic sound, price is right
CONS- those awful wires sticking out makes for a messy looking bridge

RMC
PROS- Easily retrofits on existing bridges
CONS- $300 for saddles seems steep

BAGGS
PROS- Good looking bridge, proven sound, price is right
CONS- onboard control involves that much maligned 3rd pot or the loss of the current tone pot

While I'm leaning towards Ghost, mostly because I'm intrigued by the mid/dark switch, I would vote with my ears. Which one sounds the most realistic?

[jimmieb]

Hey Tom,

It seems to me the midi feature may becoming a more useable alternative. If triggering loops and such is becoming a big part of music. I still am not convinced that synth type sounds trigger or track well, though they have come a long way. Maybe I just haven't learned how to get the right attach on the string to get an appropriate sound. For me the acoustic tones are not
convincing on Electric/Acoustic, ie the Fishman. Maybe the real issue is the Electric strings. To me, it seems that if the acoustic tones on the other piezo systems aren't noticalbly better, I'd would opt for the Crowdster with an Electric P/U. I'm not familiar with the RMC system, but I bet it's the most expensive. Still if I could get a resonably convincing acoustic tone, price might be less of an issue. I guess I'm looking, ideally, for an Atom/Crowdster combo. If there were such a guitar close to that it would be worth paying for. If the tone of the three mentioned piezo's is similar in quality, I'd want the least expensive one. Maybe I'm a little short sighted on the future, but midi isn't too important to me. I'll bet that the progression of midi will lean to electronics in the guitar like the Variax. The last question would be ethestics, which system is the least noticable on a guitar and if they hinder the tone of the electric tones.
To me if the acoustic tones aren't a lot better on the others I'd go with Baggs X bridge. This is more 2cents, so here's a dollars worth...

Jimmie B

[GaryMcT]

I'm getting crustier by the day. :) I'm happy enough with the Fishman stuff that I'd opt for whatever is closest to that. I'd prefer to continue using a stereo jack with no extra controls on the guitar. . .this makes it easier to crossfade using my pinky for magnetic and foot for piezo. I'm not interested in midi on guitars right now. If it were there, I might try to use it for something, but I'd almost rather not open that can of worms.

[dannopelli]

I'm getting crustier by the day. :) I'm happy enough with the Fishman stuff that I'd opt for whatever is closest to that. I'd prefer to continue using a stereo jack with no extra controls on the guitar. . .this makes it easier to crossfade using my pinky for magnetic and foot for piezo. I'm not interested in midi on guitars right now. If it were there, I might try to use it for something, but I'd almost rather not open that can of worms.

Got to agree here. Keep it simple. :D

[tom]

so far, all the options will be more complicated. fishman is the only one that has enough level to leave the guitar passively. everyone else needs an onboard preamp before exiting the guitar :(

[jimmieb]

You know Tom I was wondering with the new Crowdster with the P/U, do you have to have a power bridge option. To me it make more sense to have an acoustic guitar that you add electric than the oposite.

Jimmie B

[tom]

i think they are 2 different applications. the crowdster plus is for the mainly acoustic guy who wants the best acoustic sound and wants to be able to add some great electric tones sometimes. hence the big acoustic strings and uncompromised acoustic tone and feel. the regular electrics with piezos added are for the mostly electric guy who sometimes wants to add some acoustic. both guys or girls have a top priority, and i don't want to sacrifice anything on the top priority.

[LonestarGtr]

Tom,

I'm not sure how much I would use this nowadays, but when I used a guitar with piezo pickup, I always used a separate output jack on the guitar as opposed to messing with stereo splitting cables, etc. I don't know if that's really an option, but I would run my piezo output to a d.i. and keep the electric signal intact. That eliminated the need for any additional blender. I never really think that piezo through an amp, especially a tube amp, sounds that good. And I'm very partial to Baggs pu's and preamps over the Fishman stuff, just based on my experiences with both with piezo bridges on electrics and acoustics. I don't know if any of this helps, but I'd vote for just a good baggs pu and if there's a usable that can live in the guitar.

Mike

[getgo]

Yep, put me down as one of the acoustic guys that want an electric sound every so often. Not to hijack this thread but have you made any progress on a retro fit decision on the 'bucker for the Crowdy's Tom?

[tom]

have not, still working long hours to cover jesse being out. haven't forgotten though. it's ok to remind me, the squeaky wheel thing.

[MEP]

Tom,
I have the LR Baggs set-up on my Hollow T w/ contours and it sounds very good especially if you pair it up with a Baggs Para-acoustic DI. Not as good as my Collings, Martins or Taylors but good. I don't use this feature as much as I use to but it is nice to have when you want it or need it.

Quick story, I was playing backup on this guitar for another worship leader, who was playing acoustic, at a church service and while he was talking I switched to the X-bridge pickup and started playing very softly through the DI and sound system. I saw my wife looking around and later she asked who was playing acoustic. I asked her, "Why, did it sound bad?" She said, "No, it sounded great and it sounded like your picking but I couldn't see anybody playing acoustic." So it was good enough to fool her and she is usually pretty critical (in a positive way).

I don't mind the extra knob and switch, but I don't like the power drain on the battery (even when not plugged in) if you forget to switch to magnetic pickups only. Plus there ought to be a quick battery door for changes like on my Lakland bass, instead of having to unscrew the backplate.

[tom]

if we end up back at the baggs rout, we'll use the stock control x(which would eliminate the battery drain and the second jack) and add a battery door like on the crowdster.

[bud]

Loved the sound of the Baggs, but didn't like the extra knob. (off topic:really loved the larger trem arm on that bridge... hint hint)

Haven't tried Ghost, if it performed at least as well as the Baggs it would be fine by me. Cosmetics are of concern as noted by Sylvanshine. The midi option would be nice to have on an Anderson.

RMC's IMHO have the best acoustic sound and playability for acoustic parts of the three I have owned (Fishman, Baggs, RMC). Not nearly as much piezo "clack" when you dig in. Synth tracking is also stellar. They look a little unconventional and felt a little sterile to me for electric. (I know, one of THOSE words, sorry) Mr. Maybe might have explained it to me as an emphasis on the fundamental. +1 on the cost concerns.

Tom, would the std ctrl-x still have the extra knob? And... On the Ghost is the "wire ugliness" caused by not being able to sum the 6 saddle outputs before hitting the pre-amp?

I'm fine with a on board battery, it makes it easier to implement an A/B switch for muting along with a DI.

[tom]

all of the above mentioned options would have the vol knob. the rmc is far and above the most expensive. part of the clunkyness of the ghost and rmc is the lack of a "made to go with it" bridge with a termination board built in.

[bud]

all of the above mentioned options would have the vol knob.

Any possibility of having the vol knob made permanently open and left within the control cavity?

RMC's are insanely expensive. I had an i-Guitar and figured I had paid about $150 for the "guitar part of it" after subtracting the retail cost of the RMC system.

[tom]

i suppose that's possible. the stereo mono button would also be hidden. the other questions i have a bout the baggs are the old ones had some string breakage issues but they have changed saddle material, and the open knife edges make changeing strings a little more dangerous. the zinc block is also on the duller side for the electric sound. i guess i am struggling with the piezo messing with the electric tone. i have become more electric oriented in my personal use these days so i'm more reluctant to give up anything.

[bud]

i have become more electric oriented in my personal use these days so i'm more reluctant to give up anything.

As it should be. If only others would just make stuff the way you would (if you were in the business of making that stuff). ;)

We don't seem to be zeroing in on an obvious winner in this thread, do we?

[tom]

i don't think we are. i think because of my personal usage these days i'm less motivated. i'd love to hear from some of you who are really into using the piezo.

[chasyboy]

Like ToneLounge said to me when I asked him if its I should include the piezon on my new Cobra, he said "it's worth the extra bucks for the one time you absolutely have to have it." I never used mine because it never quite sounded good, and I was an either or guy anyway. But lately, being able to do both would be kinda cool but not critical. If you're a pro playing live, your band leader would probably like that you can add some flexibility but in most cases, an elegant arrangement for electric works just fine.

I've heard all of Bud's renditions and agree the Baggs was the fullest and prettiest but that extra knob....uh....no, no, no. Thus the search for the DI with EQ that makes whatever you put in sound closer to acoustic. Remember ease+tone > extra knob+extra money. Hmmm....yeah maybe it will be a while

[GaryMcT]

I'd be really bummed if the new solution required having a battery in my guitar. Ick! I'm a big fan of anything that needs power being on the pedal board.

[sylvanshine]

What about just stock piling Fishmans? Have they stopped production completely? I mean, how many Andersons a year go out the door with Fishmans. Of the 800 guitars produced I would be shocked if we are talking about 50 guitars a year.

[GaryMcT]

Can I go ahead and buy some of your remaining Fishmans now assuming that if I never order a guitar with them, I won't ever get them? :)

[tom]

probably about 60-70 a year. they are done making them, so what we have is what we have. we figured they would last most of the year if there was no surge.

[Janine Doubly]

I was wondering why I never liked the acoustic tone of X bridge loaded Andersons. I guess it was the zinc block. I've played three X bridge loaded Andies over the years and they always seemed to lack "something". Each one was a Hollow Alder on Alder, so I assumed it was the wood combination, until I tried a Hollow alder/alder T Classic and loved it. So, my vote is to stay away from the X bridge unless they have gone to a steel block. Who makes the piezo bridge for Ernie Ball's John Petrucci model, its seems to be pretty nice? Just a thought.

[tom]

all our guitars that had gotoh bridges had zinc blocks. it wasn't till we went with the current fishman made bridge that we went to steel.

[tmihm]

I'm getting crustier by the day. :) I'm happy enough with the Fishman stuff that I'd opt for whatever is closest to that. I'd prefer to continue using a stereo jack with no extra controls on the guitar. . .this makes it easier to crossfade using my pinky for magnetic and foot for piezo. I'm not interested in midi on guitars right now. If it were there, I might try to use it for something, but I'd almost rather not open that can of worms.
+1 I love the way my Fishman sounds the way it is.

Speaking of which...I've been pokin' about - seeing if there was a way to do a piezo on my Kahler-equipped Strat. I would never have the need to run both the piezo and use the whammy together (so I wouldn't have to worry about that 'zippering' effect from the rollers).

I wrote to both Fishman and LR Baggs and they both said: "Sorry". Maybe I could shoot a line to Ghost.

Has anyone ever tried doing that? Hope this doesn't hijck the thread...if it looks that way, I'll repost it.

Thanks!

Terry

[tmihm]

+1 I love the way my Fishman sounds the way it is.

Speaking of which...I've been pokin' about - seeing if there was a way to do a piezo on my Kahler-equipped Strat. I would never have the need to run both the piezo and use the whammy together (so I wouldn't have to worry about that 'zippering' effect from the rollers).


I should mention it's a routed Kahler and not a flat-mount.

[tom]

don't think you'll have any luck with the kahler.

[tmihm]

don't think you'll have any luck with the kahler.
Thanks for the follow-up, Tom. I kinda thought it might be a shot in the dark.

Looks like I may have to get something different than my Strat. I use my Rosewood Hollow T every week, and have wanted to switch things up for a change every so often. I'm hoping to run into some $$$ in a month or so (and I'm going to be selling my mint condition Brian Moore C90P - from the old Brewster factory) and am planning out my next victim.

...and of course, it will be some flavor of a T/A. I'm hooked, but not sure what route I'm gonna take yet.

Appreciate your help!!! ;)

Terry

[bud]

Could a B-band (the soundboard transducer, not the undersaddle) be a viable power-bridge substitute on a hollow Anderson? I believe they mount these in archtops (and even inside drum shells but I'm sure the physics are different than with a guitar)

On a related but unrelated note, anyone mount a B-band in an archtop or heard one?

[tom]

don't have any experience with it.