Victoria/ Tone King

[jimmieb]

Last night after work I went over to a newer Music store in the city of Orange in the OC. I bought a new Supa-trem and tested it through a Tone King 40watt 2x12 amp. Wow! unbelievable, it was so reactive to the touch. Very 'Black Face' sounding and tremendous presence and very workable at lower volume. Of course it didn't hurt to be playing a Suhr, very much like my DT in wood and pick-up configuration, but very different in tone. I also played a Victoria 2x12 Twin great tone! I'm just begining to see how many great amps are out there. It's a big world of tone out there! Expensive, Champagne taste, Beer budget.
My point for posting is to see if anyone else has compared a Carr Rambler to the Tone-King, and thoughts on them...


Jimmie B

[michaelomiya]

Originally posted by jimmieb
Last night after work I went over to a newer Music store in the city of Orange in the OC. I bought a new Supa-trem and tested it through a Tone King 40watt 2x12 amp. Wow! unbelievable, it was so reactive to the touch. Very 'Black Face' sounding and tremendous presence and very workable at lower volume. Of course it didn't hurt to be playing a Suhr, very much like my DT in wood and pick-up configuration, but very different in tone. I also played a Victoria 2x12 Twin great tone! I'm just begining to see how many great amps are out there. It's a big world of tone out there! Expensive, Champagne taste, Beer budget.
My point for posting is to see if anyone else has compared a Carr Rambler to the Tone-King, and thoughts on them...


Jimmie B

"the OC"?!? Jimmie, spoken like a typical Los Angeleno!!:D ;)

If it's Ed's shop, yeah, that tone King Meteor 40A (40W 6V6) is stunning. It's like the best, most consistent BF twin you've ever heard/played. Unreal. BUT, unreal expensive as well, if memory serves. I also know that the guys at True Tone in Santa Mo, also sing the praises of this amp. But like I said, mucho $$$$. (as in 15-16 benjamins before tax and that's the discounted price. 'course that was like a year ago, so who knows what they're going for now)

[jimmieb]

I lived in Costa Mesa/Newport for about 15 years, at the end of 17th st toward Huntington Bch. I think it's so laughable to have a soap opera about Orange Co. I loved living there just not some of the people and the attitudes. New money social climbers.
Yeah, I went to Tone Merchants and that's right the Meteor, I didn't remember the name. It's actually $2100. Maybe the 22watt version is $1600 or Ed just saw me coming. I can be kinda jaded, especially where music stores are concerned. It comes from working at and dealing with GC type places. Still I thought Ed was quite cool very knowledgable, a little quiet. Noel was very helpful, a great guy, really knew his stuff. I really learned alot from him. I had a great time, I haven't as much fun in a store since I stumbled into Wildwood Guitars almost 20 years ago. I'm still thinking about that amp, I can't think of a better term than "reactive". It was so amazing it reacted so different to each different touch, and very in your face, not loud just very present. I think either the Rambler or the Meteor is in my future, no more Edsel's or Diezels( just kidding!). I 've got to find the time to drive a Carr! Or overdrive it. It will be a great addition to my Mesa Lonestar, which is very Plexi. I love the amp but it can get a little too dark and get lost behind the bass. Sometime that's great especially on rhythm passages (CRUNCH!). I've got to be a little over the top on the volume for lead stuff, at least according the worship leader and vocalists. Stage volume the eternal battle, I wish there where more sound guys like the one at Tom's church.

Jimmie B

[tom]

volume is a huge issue at my church. i couldn't even think of using a 50-100 watt amp. i am thinking about the lonestar special though. getting the tone at low volume is a real challenge. every time i plug into an amp and crank it up, i get re energized. wish there was a way to get that feel at low volume, but i know it's impossible.

[sonicparke]

Tom,

Have you ever gone over and checked out TopHat's? They've got a wonderfully usable master volume that retains a very good amount of the tone at lower volumes. Granted it's not like turning it all the way up but you still get great tone without blowing peoples head off.

[tom]

tried one, sounded like it wanted to be turned up farther though. it's the pshyco acoustic thing that happens when loud sound hits the guitar that makes the magic happen.

[mbrown3]

Yep, there's nothing that can "emulate" the interaction between axe and amp. One suggestion, Tom, when I lived in Prague we set up a 3-sided cube out of soundproof material (looked like some kind of fiberglass or plastic something) in which we situated my amp and cranked it, facing the back wall, and I stood behind it. The soundproof panels kept much of the sound from overpowering the whole sanctuary, and we mic'ed it through the system, yet I was able to get that interaction without much of the volume headache. Still can't get TOO wild with volume, but it worked far better than anything else I've tried. Not sure if this would work in your setting, but it may be worth considering...

[tom]

i have considered that, but i don't think space will allow. i will say that i have come to enjoy not having my ears blasted. it's nice to finish playing and not have ear fatigue.

[sonicparke]

It is true that it likes to be turned up but stil sounds pretty darn good at lower volumes. But you're right...nothing beats cranking the amp. I've never thought too hard about the amp affecting the guitar at high volumes. But it makes complete sense.

[sonicparke]

Have you thought about having one of the boo-teek guys custom build you what you need? Like an 18 watter squashed down to 5 or 8 or so but with the controls of a larger amp?

[mbrown3]

It's not just having the amp controls cranked, it's the actual volume...the thrust of airwaves interacting with the guitar. There's a resonance/vibration thing that happens that simply can't occur at lower volumes...

[sonicparke]

Right...I gathered that. I just used cranking the volume on the amp in relation to the amp getting louder and the sound waves affecting the guitar. I have been playing pretty loud at church lately and it's sounding great. It's almost blowing me off the stage but it sounds good. :D

[tom]

i have talked to a few guys, but i feel a little weird asking for something that they don't really do. everyone has their thing that they do, and reasons for doing it. i also don't know the inner workings of amps, so i don't know what it takes to do different stuff. i also am a little affraid of having a custom amp built and then not liking it. the market for used custom amps doesn't seem that good, unless it's a dumble.

[slowburn]

Originally posted by tom
volume is a huge issue at my church. i couldn't even think of using a 50-100 watt amp. i am thinking about the lonestar special though. getting the tone at low volume is a real challenge. every time i plug into an amp and crank it up, i get re energized. wish there was a way to get that feel at low volume, but i know it's impossible.

not speaking from experience, cause I've never heard one, but I remember a few years back guytron was getting rave reviews for being able to achieve awesome tone at low volumes...

http://www.guytron.com

I always wanted one, but buying the grosh tapped me out. now I'm married with a mortgage, no guitar money. if I had to do it all over again, I would have bought a mesa blue angel and then like a fender american deluxe strat for the same money as my grosh, but I digress...

[tom]

i also thought the guytron had a great low volume sound. it just seems a little crazy to me to haul a heavy 100 watt head around when all i need is 10 watts. not to mention the price. the older i get the lazier i get.

[pluto]

Originally posted by jimmieb
Yeah, I went to Tone Merchants and that's right the Meteor, I didn't remember the name. It's actually $2100. Maybe the 22watt version is $1600 or Ed just saw me coming. I can be kinda jaded, especially where music stores are concerned. It comes from working at and dealing with GC type places. Still I thought Ed was quite cool very knowledgable, a little quiet. Noel was very helpful, a great guy, really knew his stuff. I really learned alot from him. I had a great time, I haven't as much fun in a store since I stumbled into Wildwood Guitars almost 20 years ago. Jimmie B

AHHHH, tone merchants! One day I'll make it over there, hopefully next year if my plans to go to take my family to Disneyland come to fruition. Ed's a cool guy-not your typical salesperson-I've bought some stuff from him over the phone and he's always honest. And Wildwood! Steve Mesple is another cool dude. You mainlanders are lucky-so many places to try out gear!

[pluto]

Originally posted by slowburn
not speaking from experience, cause I've never heard one, but I remember a few years back guytron was getting rave reviews for being able to achieve awesome tone at low volumes...

http://www.guytron.com

I always wanted one, but buying the grosh tapped me out. now I'm married with a mortgage, no guitar money. if I had to do it all over again, I would have bought a mesa blue angel and then like a fender american deluxe strat for the same money as my grosh, but I digress...

FWIW-A friend of mine has the newer version Guytron and swears it has the best master volume he has ever played and he has played many great master volume tube amps. He said the newer version is definitely better than the older version in terms of tone, so if you ever get the $$ to buy one, get the newer one.

[jimmieb]

Originally posted by tom
volume is a huge issue at my church. i couldn't even think of using a 50-100 watt amp. i am thinking about the lonestar special though. getting the tone at low volume is a real challenge. every time i plug into an amp and crank it up, i get re energized. wish there was a way to get that feel at low volume, but i know it's impossible.

Tom,

I've been using my Lonestar on the 50 Watt setting in the tweed mode. The guys at Boogie tell me the amp is working at about thirty watts. Keep in mind it's not class A. If I use the tube rectifier then the sag makes it sound a little darker and the perception of higher volume is lessened, less presence. I use my Fat Boost cranked at three o'clock on the drive and 10 o'clock on the volume, it's always on. Then I toggle between my SpakleDrive for a thinner overdrive tone and Fulldrive for a warmer more hard driven tone. Then if I want more break up I use the same pedals on the 2nd channel without the drive on and the gain up more than the 1st channel, this really gets that throaty Plexi tone. With the Sparkledrive and Fulldrive pedals off I get a great clean tone and a threshold break up tone on the 2nd channel. Lots of options... and all that to say if I hit the front end hard with the Fat Boost I can turn the master on the Lonestar down and still get good tone at lower volume. So far it works at the Quaker church I sometimes play at on Sunday AM. Kinda conservative...Still I'm always pushing for more volume to get more sustain or feedback.
I'm considering buying an Exotic RC and putting it in the FX loop to drive the power tubes harder. Same idea as the Fat Boost drive up with the volume lower.

Jimmie B

PS Sometimes the congregation has to just understand a 'joyful noise" is a loud one... Can you image the sound in the temple when Isaiah got his calling. You know the coal in the mouth thing. It says, It shook the pillars of the temple... I bet even my Boogie isn't that LOUD! Rockin' Serafin!
I forgot, I'm going up to Thousand Pines tonight to a Baptist mens conference. I'm playing electric and leading worship sunday for Tony Campolo... It's Friday and Sundays a coming. I always wanted to use that in context. I forgot to come up to Newbury Park to check out a Crowdy for the weekend... I know you sell them not rent them!

[jimmieb]

Originally posted by pluto
AHHHH, tone merchants! One day I'll make it over there, hopefully next year if my plans to go to take my family to Disneyland come to fruition. Ed's a cool guy-not your typical salesperson-I've bought some stuff from him over the phone and he's always honest. And Wildwood! Steve Mesple is another cool dude. You mainlanders are lucky-so many places to try out gear!

I worked with Steve for three years in the late 80's. That's where I became familiar with Anderson. Steve is one of the most honest men and one of the most integral persons I know. What a cool store to work in. Some of the coolest gear I've ever been around. In fact, I got the first Anderson Wildwood ordered, a DT basswood, in Cajun Red. I also got a custom shop J-18 Martin with curly mahogany back and sides, all pre-war appointments it's amazing! I see your in Hawaii. Have you ever meet James Goodall? He's another stellar man. What a magician with Koa! and rosewood, and mahogany, and you name it...a great artisian.

Jimmie B

[pluto]

Originally posted by jimmieb
I worked with Steve for three years in the late 80's. That's where I became familiar with Anderson. Steve is one of the most honest men and one of the most integral persons I know. What a cool store to work in. Some of the coolest gear I've ever been around. In fact, I got the first Anderson Wildwood ordered, a DT basswood, in Cajun Red. I also got a custom shop J-18 Martin with curly mahogany back and sides, all pre-war appointments it's amazing! I see your in Hawaii. Have you ever meet James Goodall? He's another stellar man. What a magician with Koa! and rosewood, and mahogany, and you name it...a great artisian.

Jimmie B

I bought an Anderson last year from Steve-he's a really nice guy. I still email him every now and then to get price quotes. He must be sick of me by now! I never met Goodall-I think he lives in Maui whereas I live in Honolulu. I don't think I've ever seen a Goodall guitar here!

[guitarzan]

I've finally found a home!!!!!! I got my HDTC a few years ago with the help of my buddy, Brian, and now I've found people talking about my amp!!!! This is home. my graceland.

A few months ago, I started to foster a slight addiction to low-wattage tube amps. I bought everything I could get my hands on that was between 5 and 15 watts like the Ampeg Jet (not into it), the Peavey Classic 20 (the world's most underrated lunchbox with a master volume control that sags and sponges beautifully at bedroom volumes), the Trace Elliot Velocette (the first incarnation of the modern Gibson Gold Tone series and another absolute gem), and anything else that had a 1x10 configuration with low power. I went over to see Ed at Tone Merchants because he had a little Bad Cat Mini Cat there that I was gonna test drive/ purchase. I was un-impressed with the Mini Cat and just walked around the showroom with my Anderson in one hand and the open end of the quarter-inch just looking at amps to test drive. I passed by the Tone King as many times as I circled the showroom. I had a TopHat Club Royale 2x12 at home and wasn't about to sacrifice it for something called a "Tone King" that looked like an old television. After trying everything else, I reluctantly plugged into the TK before I left. One chord and I was sold... no, LITERALLY. I hit a G chord and heard everything that I love about the world, my life, my faith, guitar playing, etc., etc., etc., I actually rekindled my love for my Anderson that night... The sparkle of the Meteor is nothing short of beautiful and the cabinet has been tuned to react like an acoustic guitar. Not to mention that you can bias the tubes yourself on the back and the amp weighs 30-something lbs.- I've played a lot of amps and am somewhat of a tone snob (regrettably) but have finally found the perfect rig. Anderson HDTC, into a full Visual Sound rig (you know, the guys who make the Jekyll & Hyde, Route 66, and H2O- I have the blessing of being their West Coast sales rep), into the TK. Between the guitar's switcheroo, the pedals, and the two (completely different colored) channels of the Meteor, I'm ready to sell everything else except for one backup guitar and one backup lunchbox amp (which will both undoubtedly lose all luster under a healthy layer of dust).

I know this has been a pretty long post, but between the talk of the low wattage amps and the mention of the Tone King, I had to chime in (har har... 6v6 humor...)

btw, Tom, I just checked the TK website and mark has a 15 watt version of the meteor with el-84s. It's not going to give you the feel of rumbling floor, but it's still an acceptable sanctuary amplifier. Also, he just discontinued the Meteor line and started a new production line. The new line is the Meteor II (and the list went up about 300 dollars).

...okay... I'm done.... thanks for listening...

[tom]

ok, so i'm slow or don't read well. the meteor is how much power? can it be had in a head? i'd go to the website, but i just finished the new neck joint and i have to go try it out.

[guitarzan]

Mark (Bartel) makes 4 versions of the Meteor amps. 2 are USA voicing with 6v6 power tubes and 2 are UK voiced with el84 tubes. Each one comes in a "little" and "big" version. The US in 20 and 40 watters, the UK in 15 and 30 watters. Also, he just released Meteor II about a week ago and that line comes in a head version. I'm thinking about making a trip up your way to have my blower switch wired for my neck pup so if you'd like me to I can drop off my Meteor for a day or two. It's a Meteor 20, so it's american sounding, like a Deluxe on one channel and what feels like a variation on a bassman on the other.

[tom]

would love to hear it!

[dpeterson]

[i]wish there was a way to get that feel at low volume, but i know it's impossible. [/B]


have you ever thought about some kind of isolation box, maybe in another room with a mic in it, then have the sound guy pump the sound to you through a monitor? then you could crank it.

just a thought..

dave

[guitarzan]

i think the only problem with that scenario, though, is that it removes the love affair between the guitar and the amp. It's like substituting a long distance internet-based romance for a face-to-face relationship. A few posts back, someone mentioned that the REAL interaction occurs between an organic, resonating instrument and an organic, resonating, air-pushing loudpeaker/ soundwave.

I agree that, in theory, it would be a benefit to isolate the amp and feed the reference through monitors, but in that case, you could just use a POD or something and get something as close as 90-95% of the tone you'd like to hear from the cranked amp. And once the band kicks in, that other 5-10% is covered anyway.

This is the newest Theological Debate. "How To Crank An Amp During Worship Without Scaring Away The Holy Spirit".
:)

[tom]

i have considered the iso box, but i prefer hearing the amp rather than the monitor. i don't have them give me any of my amp in the monitor. i do agree with the interaction thoughts, there is nothing like having the guitar hit with loud sound from your very own amp's speakers. i must say that i am really happy with my current rig, but there's always that illusive tone out there.

[guitarzan]

That's exactly what I had been saying for a long time. "I'm happy with my rig, but..." I think it's what started my affinity for little lunchbox amps. They're all voiced differently and all of the cabs resonate differently so I can have the honk of a Gibson with my Velocette and the girth of a midget-Marshall through a Peavey Classic 20, and so on and so on. The best part is, you can take a few of these to a gig without breaking your back and you can put a few more in your closet without breaking the bank. Outside of the Bad Cat Mini and the TopHat Portly Cadet, most of them are in the $200 range on ebay and in the paper.

If I'm being honest with myself, I haven't ever REALLY been happy with my rig because I've always been looking for something else... and then along came the Tone King.... (enter cheesy romantic music here...)

[dannopelli]

What about a Dr Z Maz Jr. 18 watts. Tons of tone. The 2x10 or the 1x12 with the Celestion 25 watt speaker sounds awesome! And it gets good tone at lower volumes.

[jimmieb]

Originally posted by tom
i have considered the iso box, but i prefer hearing the amp rather than the monitor. i don't have them give me any of my amp in the monitor. i do agree with the interaction thoughts, there is nothing like having the guitar hit with loud sound from your very own amp's speakers. i must say that i am really happy with my current rig, but there's always that illusive tone out there.

Tom,

I have to chime in... I heard the same amp at Tone Merchant and it was amazing! The amp is alot about the cabinet, it's tuned to resonate like a acoustic guitar box. I have never heard a more rounded focused bass. It's like the sound you would hear comparing East Indian and Brazlian Rosewood on a Martin. the bottom tightens and is focused no matter the volume, including low volume. Seriously the bass was so in your face, not an ounce of tubbyness. I was playing through a Suhr alder guitar, I wonder what a Cobra would do. I'd like to hear the Meteor II before I bite.
I think the amp will not shine without the Tone King's cab it's an intrical part of the sound. Meaning, I wonder if the Bogner cube will work... Still you never know. I am most curious in the comparision between the Rambler and the Meteor. They seem to be both taged as Black Face Deluxe as their root tone. If you get the chance to compare I'd love to hear the report. I'm very happy with my 'Lone Star' which is vintage Marshall, but I'm looking for something Fender to set next to it. Boogie's got the Marsall dirt with this amp but not the cleaner tones as much. Don't say anything to Doug or Randy but I might be tempted to convert after playing the Tone King... No! It'll never happen, butttt?

Jimmie B

[guitarzan]

you hit the nail right on the head with your description of the Tone King. I'd also love the hear the comparisons to the Rambler. I've never played (or heard) a Carr, but I hear guys talking about them all the time on tone forums.

[tom]

if you come by the shop for the work, i have my rambler here. we could compare the meteor to it. the rambler is a dual 6L6 class a amp, so to me it does have a bit more sparkle than a traditional fender.